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Thread: Buddy Holly

  1. #2201
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    Hi Buddyhistorian,
    Was the ice on the inside or the outside of the window or even on both sides of it? I guess that nobody will be able to answer this question. But on the other hand this would be very importand to know from my point of view.
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)

  2. #2202
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    Hi, Lothar

    It's hard to tell if the ice is inside outside or both for that matter. there is one pic that is very disturbing because if you look at the glass around the frame you can see a hair line crack that you can see though right along the edge of the frame that tells me that the ice was on the window when the crash happened and the glass moved in it's frame and made that one clear hair line crack you can see through/ does that sound about right. if the ice formed over night the whole glass would be coated with ice
    I saw this just studying photos if you take in account what the owner of N3794N Hubert Dwyer said (I can tell you this it was not weather) it makes perfect sense as to
    what Jerry Dwyer has been not saying all these years.. if that ice formed over night you would not have a crack along the frame of the glass that you can see through
    the ice was on the glass at the time of the crash and the glass moved on impact to form that little clear gap along the frame..why this is over looked I don't know.. did the glass and frame get moved before they saw this? did the glass fall out?don't know (CAB) was there after dark that day a lot happened before they even got there to investigate.. there are no photos of day two or three so to know if the glass was there when they investigated the crash who knows It is very interesting your talking 1959 we don't conduct investigation like that now in this day and age... it's a very very strong fact if you ask me and after all these years interviews, movies, reading thousands of blogs all these pilots saying what they think happened the (CAB) giving there report not one thing has ever been mentioned about this I think it has it's roll in this crash that took the life of these 4 young men...
    Last edited by Buddyhistorian; 03-09-2016 at 10:45 AM.

  3. #2203
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    Quote:
    "there is one pic that is very disturbing because if you look at the glass around the frame you can see a hair line crack that you can see though right along the edge of the frame that tells me that the ice was on the window when the crash happened and the glass moved in it's frame and made that one clear hair line crack you can see through/ does that sound about right. if the ice formed over night the whole glass would be coated with ice"

    That really makes sense, Buddyhistorian!
    I have two photos of day two (4.2.1959 - 2/4/1959). One of them shows that the glass was still there. Unfortunately Im not able to post it here. These photos were taken when they were busy to get the pilot out of the wreckage.
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)

  4. #2204
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    PS - I got it!
    This photo was taken on 2/4/1959 (4.2.1959) when they were busy to get the pilot of of the plane. The wing for example is covered with more snow than on the day before. The photo is not of the best quality - sorry - but it wasnt possible to post the 4,5mb (too big) one here!
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)
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  5. #2205
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    Lothar

    Thank you! interesting photo of day 2
    I saw a photo of that window somewhere that showed this hair line crack along the frame that I'm talking about where you can see through the glass unobstructed right
    along the frames edge where that ice is that is disturbing because what that tells me is the ice could have been there pre crash and when the aircraft tumbled the glass
    pulled out from the frame and leaving a clear spot in the glass I saw this maybe in a foot photo of Rodger Peterson but not 100% for sure.. he was still in the aircraft
    then which means the glass was most likely not disturbed to make that unobstructed view. the only way that clear spot could have gotten there would be after the
    ice had formed and then the glass was moved it's pretty interesting anyway you look at it because the (CAB) SAY'S Peterson lost his VFR. shortly after take off and
    you have Hubert Dwyer contesting that it was not the weather like every one say's it was, I could see my tail light... that tells me that Dwyer know these facts and
    that would not be weather which caused Peterson to loose his VFR. but the ice sure would do that.. the same out come could happen just two different root factors
    (CAB) SAID he flew into or entered a area of complete darkness secondary cause snow.. well if you take off and your windows ice up fog up you entered an area of complete darkness also they need to get this right so these 4 souls can rest in peace.. If they had it right there would not be all this theory case would be closed..
    entering complete darkness waiting for your windows to clear up and bang ground contact just sounds so right to me. they were slowly going down. says Dwyer
    Last edited by Buddyhistorian; 03-09-2016 at 07:02 PM.

  6. #2206
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    I would like to stand corrected! it's one of the photos were people think they think they see a image of a face down in the wreckage. (Hair line crack)...

  7. #2207
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    http://www.mousenest.net/pilotboot.jpg

    I guess you are talking about this photo here, Buddyhistorian. But like the other one it has maybe not enough pixels to show the tiny detail you are talking about.
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)

  8. #2208
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    There is a photo that was taken which shows the side of the frame and glass up close just below the knee of Rodger Peterson! people think they see an image of a face
    down in the wreckage below his knee, but it is not his face.. that is the picture that shows the crack along the frame close up.. it's pretty interesting fact's I say..

  9. #2209
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    Lothar

    Go to page 22/ #1096 posted by SRV you can see the crack along the frame I'm talking about! if the ice formed over night how did that clear spot get there (interesting).. it's pretty cut and dry what happened to Roger Peterson there is no ice on anything other then the glass look at his shoe tip there is no ice! if it formed overnight there would be ice on other things! there's not..why would they hide this or not mention this as the cause of the crash ///???? how could they overlook this //??? any idea's/???
    Last edited by Buddyhistorian; 03-13-2016 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #2210
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    Buddyhistorian,
    Yes it really seams that the ice was there before the plane crashed and no further ice formed overnight. On my 6,22mb photo one can see it clearly. Amazing find my friend - thank you!!
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)

  11. #2211
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    Lothar, Yes, that seems pretty amazing wish more could be found out, I know the (4) young men that lost there lives that night have not been with us for more then five decades now,but for some reason this tragic night will not die, every day it get's more and more attention, more and more people interested, LJ. Coon tried to get it reopened, etc.. I believe that is because they got it wrong about the crash, can we bring them back (NO).. can we let them rest in peace (YES).. I think if people were 100% sure like other crashes (Patsy Cline)..(Rhodes).... and others (they knew the cause for sure) as for this crash! I think the (CAB) might have it wrong maybe... There is to many things that don't add up. I always thought that maybe the windows frosted inside or out and Rodger could not see and that had something to do with it as strange as this may sound the big bopper was found the furthest away from the other bodies and he was the heaviest of them all sounds strange to me.. I think he was not buckled in all the way, they found him with nothing on but just his boxers that is strange to me also...... this is what I think could have maybe happened maybe...they sat on the runway for a while like Jerry Dwyer said!! this tells me that with all the body heat in that little airplane the windscreens had not been 100% frost free...after they had taken off the problem got out of hand.. To this day Hubert Dwyer says he could see his little tail light and has no reason to believe that Rodger had reason to look at his Gyro. Jerry Dwyer is most likely wrong about that one. the reporter first on the scene in a interview said he could not understand how the bopper got on the other side of the fence and was striped of his clothing. I have a reason for that I read somewhere that there may have been some commotion aboard. I think the big bopper may have been trying to wipe the windows last minute effort trying to see out the windows so he used his clothing to try and wipe the windscreens knowing they were in trouble. what else would they have to wipe the windows with besides clothing? that would wipe a window? not all clothing would do that also, call me crazy but if i was blinded and could not see you bet I would be trying to wipe the windows.. I think in some way they knew something was not right at the end that was not being able to see out the windscreens.. Rodger may have got disoriented/misread his instruments for sure because he could not see from the frost on the aircraft's windscreens, I think they knew to some degree at the last seconds and the big bopper may have been trying to see out the windows that may have been some of the commotion aboard the airplane, if we were going 70 mph in a car or 165 mph in a plane and the windows frosted up what would you do???? start wiping the windows, slow down, etc. but in a plane keeping on going is all you can do, kind of freaky if you ask me. Jerry Dwyer is right it was not weather like people think (he said this in a interview)...I think it may have been frost/ice on the windscreens and not weather like he said (if he's telling the truth). after all these years it would be nice to know what Hubert Dwyer thinks went on aboard that airplane.( I was there when the plane took off Dwyer said and have a good idea of what went on aboard that plane)... need to see Dwyers book...
    Last edited by Buddyhistorian; 03-15-2016 at 09:42 AM.

  12. #2212
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    Quote:
    "I have a reason for that I read somewhere that there may have been some commotion aboard. I think the big bopper may have been trying to wipe the windows last minute effort trying to see out the windows so he used his clothing to try and wipe the windscreens knowing they were in trouble. what else would they have to wipe the windows with besides clothing?"
    Well, Buddyhistorian, I guess this plane was far too small for a change of clothing, especially for a big man like the Bopper sitting beside Ritche. If they tried to clean the windows then it would be with a handkerchief in first place Id say. But - OK - we are not able to turn back time and have to let them rest in peace whatever the reason for the crash was - sad but true! Was the moisture and ice their only problem or was there another one too? Maybe Mr. Dwyer gives us the answer posthum one fine day - who knows.
    Lothar (Gelsenkirchen/Germany)

  13. #2213
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    They were barely in the air before the fatal dive into the ground. It is doubtful that any movement was going on in that small aircraft. We can only speculate about what happened but it seems somehow the pilot was unable to keep the plane flying whether it was vertigo, overloaded and weight shifted or weather related. Perhaps someday, somehow we'll get the answers we need. I wouldn't count on Mr. Dwyer.

  14. #2214
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    I may be mistaken, but wasn't there a documentary being made about the day the music died? It was when the photos of Buddy and Richie playing at the Surf Ballroom surfaced.....

  15. #2215
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulletnose View Post
    They were barely in the air before the fatal dive into the ground. It is doubtful that any movement was going on in that small aircraft. We can only speculate about what happened but it seems somehow the pilot was unable to keep the plane flying whether it was vertigo, overloaded and weight shifted or weather related. Perhaps someday, somehow we'll get the answers we need. I wouldn't count on Mr. Dwyer.

    That's what I remember reading about the Holly crash - they were only in the air a very few short minutes before they crashed. Almost like SRV's helicopter accident. They weren't in the but just minutes before they hit the fog-shrouded mountain.
    "Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's Heaven on Earth" - Mark Twain

  16. #2216
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    Its been a while since I've posted on here (again). Looks like there's some interesting discussions going on! I'll have to go back and read through them and see what i missed.

    Question: I believe this was posted here but no idea where. I recall watching on YouTube a few years ago a British production showing Buddy and company in their final hours. Does anyone else remember that and know where to find it? Thanks in advance!

  17. #2217
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    MSN Reporting 1960s pop singer Bobby Vee has died at age 73

    MINNEAPOLIS Pop idol Bobby Vee, the boyish, grinning 1960s singer whose career was born when he took a Midwestern stage as a teenager to fill in after the 1959 plane crash that killed rock 'n' roll stars Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and J.P. "The Big Bopper" Richardson, has died. He was 73.
    Vee, whose hits included the chart-topping "Take Good Care of My Baby" and who helped a young Bob Dylan get his start, died Monday of advanced Alzheimer's disease, said his son, Jeff Velline. Vee was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease in 2011, and performed his last show that year.
    Born Robert Velline in Fargo, North Dakota, Vee was only 15 when he took the stage in Moorhead, Minnesota, after the Feb. 3, 1959, plane crash in Iowa that killed Holly, Valens and Richardson on their way to the concert. That dark day in rock history was commemorated by singer-songwriter Don McLean in his 1972 pop song "American Pie" as "The Day The Music Died."
    The call went out for local acts to replace Holly at his scheduled show at the Moorhead National Guard Armory. Vee and his 2-week-old band volunteered, along with three or four other bands. The show's emcee, Charlie Boone, then a disc jockey at KFGO Radio, turned to Vee and asked him the name of his band. Vee looked at the shadows of his bandmates on the floor and answered: The Shadows.
    The Associated Press FILE - In this Dec. 18, 2013 file photo, Bobby Vee poses at the studio console at his family's Rockhouse Productions in St. Joseph, Minn. Vee, whose rise toward stardom began as a "I didn't have any fear right then," Vee recalled in a 1999 interview with The Associated Press. "The fear didn't hit me until the spotlight came on, and then I was just shattered by it. I didn't think that I'd be able to sing. If I opened my mouth, I wasn't sure anything would come out."

    Vee called his debut a milestone in his life, and "the start of a wonderful career."
    Within months the young singer and The Shadows, which included his older brother Bill on lead guitar, recorded Vee's "Suzie Baby" for Soma Records in Minneapolis. It was a regional hit, and Vee soon signed with Liberty Records.
    He went on to record 38 Top 100 hits from 1959 to 1970, hitting the top of the charts in 1961 with the Carole King-Gerry Goffin song, "Take Care Good of My Baby," and reaching No. 2 with the follow-up, "Run to Him." Other Vee hits include "Rubber Ball," ''The Night Has A Thousand Eyes," ''Devil or Angel," ''Come Back When You Grow Up," ''Please Don't Ask About Barbara" and "Punish Her."
    Besides his clear, ringing voice, Vee also was a skilled rhythm guitarist and occasional songwriter. He racked up six gold singles, but saw his hits diminish with the British Invasion of The Beatles and other English groups in the mid-1960s.
    Vee kept recording into the 2000s, and maintained a steady touring schedule. But he began having trouble remembering lyrics during performances, and he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease in 2011. He performed his last show that year, billed only as his retirement, during an annual community fundraiser that his family holds near their home in St. Joseph, Minnesota, about 65 miles northwest of Minneapolis. But he didn't announce his diagnosis until a year later on his website.
    In a 2013 interview with The Associated Press, Vee said he knew his abilities were diminishing and he didn't want to put his family through a public decline.
    "It's not getting any better, I can tell you that," Vee said. "But I'm doing the best I can."
    Vee still released a new album, "The Adobe Sessions," a loose jam session recorded with family members in Vee's adobe garage north of Tucson, Arizona. The 2014 album featured some of Vee's favorite songs from Townes Van Zandt, Gordon Lightfoot and Ricky Nelson. It was released on the 55th anniversary of the Holly plane crash.
    The album also included Vee's cover of Bob Dylan's "The Man in Me," a nod to the folk-rock legend who got his start in Vee's band in Fargo.
    Dylan grew up in Hibbing, a town on northern Minnesota's Iron Range, and briefly played with Vee's band. Although their time playing together was short, Dylan had a lasting effect on Vee's career: It was Dylan who suggested Vee, going by the name Elston Gunn when he hammered on the piano at a couple of The Shadows' gigs, change his last name from Velline to Vee.
    In his "Chronicles: Volume One" memoir, Dylan recalled that Vee "had a metallic, edgy tone to his voice and it was as musical as a silver bell." When Dylan performed in St. Paul in 2013, he saluted Vee in the audience and performed "Suzie Baby."
    Vee and his wife, Karen, were married for more than 50 years. She died of kidney failure in 2015 at age 71. The couple had four children, including sons who performed with Vee.
    Family members said Vee's memory wasn't affected so much by Alzheimer's as his speech. During the AP interview in 2013, he answered questions but would become tongue-tied searching for the right word. Vee tried unconventional methods to alleviate his Alzheimer's symptoms, from chiropractor visits to acupuncture, and also renewed his passion for painting.
    And while he sometimes wished he could do the things that once came easily, Vee said he was "not going to cry about it."
    "God brought me home," he said. "And that's the deal."

  18. #2218
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    Sorry to hear about Bobby's passing. I enjoyed his music and he was one of the few positives that came out of The Day the Music Died. RIP

  19. #2219
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    Im new . haha, but really big on buddy holly, ritchie,and the bopper I have read alot of the thread not all but alot my question is why wasnt there a account for fuel in the report or mentioning of it like at the scene like the smell of it or anything and what happened to the hearses that carried them to there graves. where they ever used more or put out of service and if anything where did they end up. I have a thing for hearses since I road in one of my brothers he owned . I Was sadden by finding out that the hearse that hauled ELVIS was crushed mid 80s any help would be greatfull or info

  20. #2220
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    did some more reading of the tread when came acrossed something kinda interesting this photo of the crash I circled what I found it appears to me these two where taking closeups of buddy and ritchie wonder what became of these photos I would loved to seen them... and update.. I found the funeral home that took care of buddy im wondering now if they would have the records of the hearse they used ???????? still trying to find out alot more about that........ and now the photos RIP BUDDY RITCHIE BOPPER
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  21. #2221
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    Yup, it's that time again.

    RIP to the four, 58 years ago today.
    Didn't know that was a thing...

  22. #2222
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    RIP Buddy, Richie, and Big Bopper.
    You can fix anything but a blank page. --Bonnie Hearn Hill


  23. #2223
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    That is a great post. Thanks for the pictures.
    "Sweetie, all people love is your bald kitty."

  24. #2224
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    Interesting photo I don't believe I saw it before. Did you know someone took 3D photos of the crash site? This was a fad back in the day. The effect simulated being there. Has anyone ever seen them? As for smells at the scene, decomposition was slowed because of the cold.

  25. #2225
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    58 years. Rest in peace.

  26. #2226
    I was in Clear Lake this past weekend for the Winter Dance Party, definitely recommended for any fans of 50's rockabilly. Already looking forward to going again next year!

  27. #2227
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    What acts were there? I wonder how many are still alive that were part of the original show? In that I mean not only the performers but everyone necessary to bring the show off.

  28. #2228
    Quote Originally Posted by bulletnose View Post
    What acts were there? I wonder how many are still alive that were part of the original show? In that I mean not only the performers but everyone necessary to bring the show off.
    None of the original acts were there. Tommy Allsup was scheduled to perform, but died about a month before he was supposed to appear. His son Austin was asked to perform in his place though, and did a fine job. The only performer alive from the original tour I believe is Dion.

    https://www.surfballroom.com/winterdanceparty/line-up/

  29. #2229
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    How many are left from the original billing?

  30. #2230
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulletnose View Post
    How many are left from the original billing?
    Dion is the only surving member of the original (pre-crash) Winter Dance Party tour line-up.

    Waylon Jennings - February 13, 2002 (diabetes)
    Carl Bunch - March 26, 2011 (diabetes)
    Fred Milano (of the Belmonts) - January 1, 2012 (cancer)
    Frankie Sardo - February 26, 2014 (cancer)
    Carlo Mastrangelo (of the Belmonts) - April 4, 2016 (cancer)
    Tommy Allsup - January 11, 2017 (complications from surgery)

  31. #2231
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    Dion often claimed he gave up his seat on the plane. As did quite a few rockers that weren't even there!

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