Sharon Tate

[Greg King]

I'm just Greg, guys...

I just don't think Garretson was reliable, at least not after 1971. He kept adding important new details to his story and claiming things he never had before. So I think his memory is shot and over-ridden, perhaps, in a way by simply taking on other things about the case he has read or seen that night and repeating them as his own memories now.

[Hippo]

To Greg:

So, you mean that, if you look up 'False Memory Syndrome' in the dictionary, there's a picture of William Garretson?

[Hippo]

This is to Johnny:

I just re-read my Ed Sanders book about Manson, and he states that Stephen Kay and Sandra Good had sort of a supervised "kiddie" date when they were 15 and 14, their moms took them to a pancake house or something for lunch.

It was the moms' idea, and the kids never went out again.

[ROBERT63]

Alisa Statman said Debra assaulted Patti. she says Patti tried to get along with her last remaining sister. but says Debra punched Patti and dislocated her jaw. if this is true then Debra is a nut and Patti should have pressed assault charges against her. or her 3 kids should track Debra down and beat her ass for payback.

[Uncle Gilly]

<span style="color: rgb(0, 100, 0);">Frankly this Debrah versus Patty crap is not relevant i suppose any thing even remotely connected to this case is fair game.; I on the other hand get bored with soap operas! Debrah Tate was not the best daughter? who is in that case, or son for that matter ; the case itself presents many facets for discussion, drugs, infidelity, sexual perversion, occultism, has any one noticed&nbsp; there are a few pro Manson and Family pages on the web? </span> some it seem want to make bad guys out of the victims so if Debra Tate goes to paroile hearings to keep the victims in peoples minds, how is that bad? and what she does apart from that is no ones damn beeswax!! I can't believe I wrote beeswax !!!!!

[Hippo]

To Uncle Gilly:

Regardless of who is in the "right," I still like to read everything I can get my hands on. Let's assume that what Debra says is true, and that Ms. Statman is a bit of a loose cannon. Her book is still ONE point of view on this case, and I appreciated getting to see some of the candid family photos and hear a few anecdotes.

[Uncle Gilly]

But if the sorce is questionable, that means a carload of indisdriminate and totally unverifiable so called facts ! beyond speculating from known facts and sources, I was intrigued by the sex tapes of Polanskis that were i think hinted at first in Helter Skelter.It said Polanski went up into the loft looking for films of he and Sharon making love. Since then, I have heard lots of what may have been on those films even Dennis Hopper ( yeah I know) had something to say !

To Uncle Gilly:

Regardless of who is in the "right," I still like to read everything I can get my hands on. Let's assume that what Debra says is true, and that Ms. Statman is a bit of a loose cannon. Her book is still ONE point of view on this case, and I appreciated getting to see some of the candid family photos and hear a few anecdotes.

[Hippo]

To Uncle Gilly:

You're right, it's very confusing. However, in studying this case, I still like to hear what everyone has to say. I just have to accept that it's not possible to get the entire story correct.

I think that whole sex-tape thing was de-bunked; there was ONE tape of Roman and Sharon making love, which the police watched and then gave back to Roman.

[ROBERT63]

You would think the tabloids would run stories about the Tate family feud. but the dysfunctional family of an actress who was murdered 42 years ago, they probably think isn't interesting enough unless it had something to do with Manson. sad but probably true. it's sad when 2 sisters can't get along especially when their sister's killers keep trying to get out. Ronald Goldman who was murdered with O.J.'S ex Nicole Simpson, his parents are divorced,the dad and sister feuded with the mother. his sister can't stand their mother. there was even a fight between Ron's parents over where Ron would be buried California where Ron,his father & step-mother and sister lived or Chicago where the mother lived. eventually the mother relented and let them bury Ronald in California.

[Uncle Gilly]

This was not debunked ,it is spread across many sources. Denial is not the same as debunking, name your source! if it was Bugliosi or a member of the tate family, forget it! Joanna Pettit a good friend of Sharon Tate said She was told by Sharon Tate herself, Polanski filmed himself in the act of love making with a girl and they would watch it! Dennis Hopper ( who had one or two lucid moments) said the Cielo drive house had a reputation and Sharon Tate would get girls for Polanski. The November 1969 LIFE magazine has a cop involved with the case saying " you wouldn't believe how weird these people were" where there is smoke !

To Uncle Gilly:

You're right, it's very confusing. However, in studying this case, I still like to hear what everyone has to say. I just have to accept that it's not possible to get the entire story correct.

I think that whole sex-tape thing was de-bunked; there was ONE tape of Roman and Sharon making love, which the police watched and then gave back to Roman.

[Hippo]

To Uncle Gilly:

Sharon hated the fact that Roman was unfaithful, I can't imagine her getting girls for him.

I don't remember where I read it--I thought it was Bugliosi's book--but I could be wrong. Since Brie Tate's book has come out, I am re-reading all my old Manson books, and I do forget where I heard what.

I would imagine that if Brie and Debra were young socialites like the Kardashians and were out getting drunk in nightclubs and punching each other in public, the tabloids would love it. This feud is not public enough for the press and they can't get any juicy photos.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

Stephen Kay really rose to the challenge. Doris was in a deep depression for more than ten years. It was by getting involved in a petition drive to keep Leslie Van Houten behind bars that galvanized her into action and gave her a strong reason to live.

I did not realize that people who committed such violent crimes often got out after 10-15 years. So "life sentence" really didn't mean life, or anything close to that. Given the fact that these particular killers were so young, they could have been back out on the streets in their thirties.

Spot On, Hippo.

Stephen Kay doesn't get the credit he deserves.

[1karenhb]

A life sentence means nothing. Life without parole supposedly means they never get out.

[johnny]

manson family through the years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4laRC7yoSKM

steven kay, laying the voodoo down on pat krenwinkle at her 85 parole hearing. recall that at the prior parole hearing after having steven kay ruin her chances for parole, she threatened kay and his family (and this wasn't an idle threat, she knew where he lived)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqbzfkQQm3E


susan atkins, through the years.

http://www.susanatkins.org/04-PhotoBiography.html

and her blog
http://www.susanatkins.org/Index.html

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

You wonder what would have happened to these girls if they had never met Manson. Would they have straightened up, or would they have been trainwrecks anyway?

It sounds awful to say this, but if they were destined to be trainwrecks, they're probably better off in prison under a carefully controlled environment, where they can at least learn how to contribute to the well-being of the other prisoners, rather than just lurching around destructively in society at large.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

You wonder what would have happened to these girls if they had never met Manson. Would they have straightened up, or would they have been trainwrecks anyway?

It sounds awful to say this, but if they were destined to be trainwrecks, they're probably better off in prison under a carefully controlled environment, where they can at least learn how to contribute to the well-being of the other prisoners, rather than just lurching around destructively in society at large.

that's a great question. i'm guessing if they had been able to get away from the drugs that they would have been able to live more productive lives. same with tex.

one of the things i often wondered was 'if' the intent was to murder folks in a house that they only sent a few girls and tex. you would think if charlie wanted to make sure that the group would be able to gain control of the situation that a few more of the fellows would have come along to help control the situation.

what i really want to know is about tex. was he really a hairdresser who knew hair stylist sebring beforehand. did he really know susan the daughter of rosemary libianca (they did live close by beforehand--and years later she was advocating for tex to get released).
same with what debra tate had evidently said earlier about the manson family spending time swimming in the pool/hanging out at the tate place beforehand.

just wondering what really happened. but those girls should spend the rest of their life behind bars along with tex.

if you haven't gotten it, get scott's '6 degrees of helter skelter.' it doesn't cost a lot but it is damn interesting.

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

Yes, I have it. Wonderful DVD. The only thing that really made me scratch my head is that neighbor who claims his house is haunted--it's not part of the documentary, but on the "extra features." That guy appears to be pretty confused.

[johnny]

as they say, the family that dumpster dives together, slays together

(scroll down)
will someone explain this mystery to me. why the hell would a famous rock star like dennis wilson --with all kinds of women throwing themselves at his feet-- want to give these heebie jeebies skank infested dumpster divers a moments notice, let alone sleep with 'em repeatedly. i'm just saying, for sinking that low he should have been forced to turn in his 'rock star card' and his name peeled off the rock and roll hall of fame.

http://cmaio.blogspot.com/2010/01/ma...er-diving.html

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

It might be a control issue. These girls were so far down the social scale that he might feel that they wouldn't expect anything, and would be extremely appreciative for whatever he did give them.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

It might be a control issue. These girls were so far down the social scale that he might feel that they wouldn't expect anything, and would be extremely appreciative for whatever he did give them.

I get what you mean, but I'm betting Dennis would pretty much have his pick of the crowd at any rock concert that would be willing to give him 'full service' any time he requested.

just the whole hygiene issue would so damn scary.

[johnny]

A story quoted from Clayton Moore's bio tells of his visit to the Spahn Ranch in the late 60's.
"If you've read Clayton's autobiography, then you might know this story, but I thought it might bear repeating.
Many Lone Ranger episodes were filmed at the Spahn Ranch, owned by an old cowboy named George Spahn. George was getting up there in years and was almost blind, and in the late sixties Clayton decided to drop by for a visit.

The whole ranch was crawling with these really weird and creepy-looking hippie types, many looking rather hostile. Clayton felt uneasy, but he wanted to see George and felt that George could probably use a visit.

George was so happy at Clayton's visit he cried a little. Clayton got the feeling that George was cut off here and quite lonely...that he was more prisoner of these hippies than host to them. One girl came in to just plunk down a plate of food in front of George without any ado.

Clayton left with a promise to stay in touch. He said afterward that if he'd known what he was leaving George in the middle of, he would have gotten him out right away.

That creepy bunch of scruffs was the Manson family. The girl who served George lunch may very well have been Squeaky Fromme.

Clayton also said that he wondered if he hadn't taken his life into his hands just by walking onto that ranch that day. He finished up by saying that the existence of these types only increased his determination to champion goodness and honesty, in whatever small ways he could."



If I recall my Lone Ranger modus operandi, I am guessing if only the Lone Ranger had sent Tonto into town first he could have seen what was happening at the Spahn Ranch, reported it back to the Lone Ranger and those two could have come up with a plan, ridden into Spahn Ranch, rescued George Spahn and rounded up the Manson Gang --Lone Ranger: 'Not so fast Tex, drop that gun' as Tonto shot the knife out of Sexy Sadie's hand; handed the Manson Gang along with confessions over to Bugliosi, and then Tonto and the Lone Ranger would ride out of town as Stephen Kay asked, 'Who was that masked man?'

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

Thank you for that interesting tidbit about Clayton Moore. His comments are a bit odd, though. Why would the Manson people take the chance of killing a celebrity right at the Spahn Ranch? Their MO was to try not to get caught by killing strangers in random places. Also, he spoke of taking George Spahn out of there--I doubt that he would have agreed to go anywhere; additionally, I don't know if Mr. Spahn disliked the Manson people at that point, or if he was enjoying the attention from Squeaky.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

Thank you for that interesting tidbit about Clayton Moore. His comments are a bit odd, though. Why would the Manson people take the chance of killing a celebrity right at the Spahn Ranch? Their MO was to try not to get caught by killing strangers in random places. Also, he spoke of taking George Spahn out of there--I doubt that he would have agreed to go anywhere; additionally, I don't know if Mr. Spahn disliked the Manson people at that point, or if he was enjoying the attention from Squeaky.

They may not have recognized Clayton as he was sans mask. They may have looked at him and thought, 'just a middle age dude who might be messing with our arrangement at the ranch' (and we know what happened when they thought Shorty was screwing things up for them....)
It was a few weeks before the Tate killings. So at that point, maybe they would have let Spahn go but then again, we may have had a missing Lone Ranger. Reads like Clayton Moore genuinely felt bad in that his instincts were telling him something was amiss and that maybe he didn't do enough. Recriminations can really weigh on a soul.

Check out this court transcript and the part about the Spahn manager, Ruby Pearl, on the last time she saw Shorty. As she was driving away, she saw Manson and the boys surrounding Shorty.

"Ruby Pearl worked on the Spahn Ranch. Pearl had known Spahn for 18 years and Shea for 15 years. She testified that Manson and members of his family came to the Spahn Ranch in the spring of 1969. In June of 1969, Shea told Pearl he had a part coming up in a motion picture which he was anxious to do. In the latter part of August 1969, "a couple of weeks" after August 16, 1969, Shea asked if he could come and stay at Pearl's home. He was very nervous. Pearl had no place for Shea to stay except in a shed. Shea did not want to stay there. Pearl drove slowly away. As she drove away Pearl saw a car drive up "real suddenly." Several Manson family members got out of the car. Pearl saw Manson, Watson, Grogan and Davis get out of the car and they spread out and approached Shea with Shea in the middle. When they were about five feet from Shea, Pearl drove out of sight. Pearl never saw or heard from Shea again."

Very interesting background.
http://www.lsb3.com/2011/04/court-tr...ld-jerome.html

[johnny]

Leslie Van Houten and her friend, the talented John Waters.
Interesting article by John Waters.
i didn't know this:
"In 1976, Leslie's original conviction was thrown out due to "ineffectual counsel" (her original lawyer drowned in the middle of her trial and was replaced) and she was given a new trial in 1977. This time, she was all by herself as a defendant in the courtroom. Remorse had started to creep in soon after she was imprisoned away from Manson. Locked away forever, Leslie, Susan, and Patricia were of no further use to Charlie and he dropped them quickly. The outsider voices of reason from the prison social workers started to seep in and Leslie began to see the holes in Manson's brainwashing. "When I'd be questioned," she later told author Karlene Faith for her very insightful and intelligent but little known book The Long Prison Journey of Leslie Van Houten, "I'd go blank and become frustrated like when a machine jams and just sits there making noise. In my head nothing was functioning. I was trying to understand, breaking down stiff little slogans that had been drilled into me." When two other "Manson girls", Mary Brunner and Catherine Shaw, a.k.a. "Gypsy", were sent to jail and placed with Leslie, Susan and Patricia, Leslie grew tired of listening to their Manson talk and confided to Patricia that "I've changed. I'm not into this." "It took three years to understand" and five or six years of therapy to "take responsibility" for the terrible crime she had helped commit.Leslie finally had a good lawyer for her second trial. Taking the witness stand truthfully for the first time, she tried to explain her state of mind through the Manson madness and his control techniques. And the jury listened, too. After about twenty-five days of deliberation there was a hung jury; seven voted for guilty of first-degree murder, and five for manslaughter due to her cult domination and uncertain mental health at the time of the crime.
Refusing to offer a plea bargain, the prosecutor took her to trial for a third time in 1978 and added a felony robbery motive (clothes, a wallet and a few coins had been taken from the La Bianca home), a crime that now couldn't legally be excused by state of mind. But this time Leslie made bail and was released from prison. She found employment as a law clerk and lived in the Echo Park area of Los Angeles. She was free for six months and lived quietly, unnoticed by the press. When a few of her new neighbors found out who she really was, after they already thought they knew her, all were "supportive" and "protective" of her anonymity.
When Leslie's third trial finally began, she came to court every day on her own. Long gone was the shaved head, and the X on her forehead was covered by bangs. No more trippy little riot-on-Sunset-Strip, satin miniskirt outfits either, like the ones she and her female co-defendants wore to the first trial. This time she was dressed tastefully and looked lovely, something that obviously didn't sit well with Stephen Kay, the prosecutor who had inherited all the Manson-related cases from Vincent Bugliosi. "All dolled up", Mr. Kay cracked to the press, giving Leslie one of her first, but definitely not last, opinionated fashion reviews. When she was finally convicted of first-degree murder at the end of the trial, life imprisonment suddenly became very real.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w..._b_246953.html

[johnny]

some Tate Family home movies
just a lot of early family stuff. hard to tell who is who.
http://vimeo.com/34915460

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

Yes, I did know that story about Leslie, and I think the reason she is still locked up is this: she's impressionable, and there's no guarantee that some other person won't come along and influence her. I believe that was the reasoning, and I believe that is why the parole board keeps turning her down.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

Yes, I did know that story about Leslie, and I think the reason she is still locked up is this: she's impressionable, and there's no guarantee that some other person won't come along and influence her. I believe that was the reasoning, and I believe that is why the parole board keeps turning her down.

you know what always strikes me as weird is the lack of real hollywoood friends of sharon tate who advocate on her behalf. here is someone who was one of their own --plus sebring who had lots of hollywood friends-- that gets little mention in terms of keeping her killers behind bars. given his legal situation, obviously roman couldn't help but sharon's friends could have done more to stand with the family (publicly) as they went on to keep those killers behind bars. they couldn't testify per se at the parole hearings but they sure as heck could have lent their celebrity oomph to the proceedings.

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

You know, that's a great point. I've looked over the autobiographies of Michelle Phillips and John Phillips, and the murders are barely mentioned in John's book, and I don't recollect them being mentioned in Michelle's book at all. So not only did these people not advocate for the victims, they barely even discussed them.

I'm guessing that people were scared and feared retaliation.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

You know, that's a great point. I've looked over the autobiographies of Michelle Phillips and John Phillips, and the murders are barely mentioned in John's book, and I don't recollect them being mentioned in Michelle's book at all. So not only did these people not advocate for the victims, they barely even discussed them.

I'm guessing that people were scared and feared retaliation.

I agree with you but really how 'bout folks like Candace Bergen or Steve McQueen (he didn't die until 1980)? They could have led the outrage over their friends killers having a shot at parole in 1978. Instead, you got Stephan Kay standing up despite getting threats from Manson members 'never too late for the little man...' who knew were he and his wife lived in Pacific Palisades.

Here is another question. When Winifred Chapmen walked down the driveway to the house, didn't she pass by Steven Parent's vehicle? Wouldn't she have seen the first person and run out to get help at that point? My understanding is that she went all the way into the house. Am I missing something here?

Also, Ruby Pearl's description of seeing Shorty being confronted by Charlie and his gang was terrifying. I bet Shorty was wishing he had taken her up on the offer to live out at her shed...

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

I am not exactly sure the route that Mrs. Chapman took. However, she went in the back door which opened into the kitchen. I am guessing that, since Steven Parent had fallen over to the right, it just looked like an empty car to her. There's no reason she would have gone up to the window to see if anyone was inside the car.

By going in the back door, I guess she did not see the two dead people on the front lawn, either.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

I am not exactly sure the route that Mrs. Chapman took. However, she went in the back door which opened into the kitchen. I am guessing that, since Steven Parent had fallen over to the right, it just looked like an empty car to her. There's no reason she would have gone up to the window to see if anyone was inside the car.

By going in the back door, I guess she did not see the two dead people on the front lawn, either.

I was thinking that she came in the gate and had to pass by the car at some point. But if the driver car door was closed and Steven PArent was just lying across the seat she probably didn't give it too much thought.

The poor lady went through a lot that day.

[Mintgiver]

If I remember, Watson had the girls help push the car a bit. Maybe he angled it so that it wasn't at a great angle to see inside.

Plus, the poor lady was probably already planning her day in her mind, and wasn't thinking about her surroundings. Yet.

[Hippo]

To Mintgiver:

Agreed. And who would expect to find dead bodies at their job? As far as she knew, it was a normal Saturday morning, very quiet due to everyone being asleep.

I'm sure that Mrs. Chapman went through hell.

Also, remember that Sharon offered for her to sleep overnight the previous evening, but she declined.

[johnny]

Poor Mrs Chapman. No doubt in the past she had to clean up after some of the wild hollywood parties not just there but for the other Hollywood types she worked for in the past so she was probably thinking from a distance as she saw bodies on the lawn, 'damn wild-ass kids. don't have the sense the good Lord gave them...OMG!!!!'

If it was me, at that point I would be saying to myself, "Holy Crap...Feets--do your stuff" and would have made like Flash Gordon for the first phone I could find.

William Garretson said that Mrs Chapman was a very nice lady.

I agree with that statement 100 percent.
She never tried to profit off it, never sold her story, never went on Geraldo, etc. A Class Act.

The look on her face here outside the courtroom --with Squeeky in the background--says it all.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAg&dur=393

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

Well, the first thing that Mrs. Chapman did when she went into the kitchen was to pick up the telephone, and she discovered it was dead. Maybe she had seen the wires down outside and wanted to check.

I'm sure she wished she had never entered the house--at that point, the killers could have still been on the premises, nobody knew what was going on.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

Well, the first thing that Mrs. Chapman did when she went into the kitchen was to pick up the telephone, and she discovered it was dead. Maybe she had seen the wires down outside and wanted to check.

I'm sure she wished she had never entered the house--at that point, the killers could have still been on the premises, nobody knew what was going on.

the trauma that poor lady suffered. i do hope she didn't suffer too much.

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

She had to testify at the trial and was still very rattled, from what I understand. Poor thing.

Part of what had everybody rattled was that there were so many Manson acolytes, and there were vague threats made about retribution for anyone who testified. There was that poisoning attempt on Barbara Hoyt, and some people believe that Ronald Hughes was murdered, although I believe it was an accidental drowning.

Vince Bugliosi had bodyguards during the whole trial, and the judge did, too. If you're a witness, and you have no bodyguard, you're going to be nervous.

[johnny]

To Johnny:

She had to testify at the trial and was still very rattled, from what I understand. Poor thing.

Part of what had everybody rattled was that there were so many Manson acolytes, and there were vague threats made about retribution for anyone who testified. There was that poisoning attempt on Barbara Hoyt, and some people believe that Ronald Hughes was murdered, although I believe it was an accidental drowning.

Vince Bugliosi had bodyguards during the whole trial, and the judge did, too. If you're a witness, and you have no bodyguard, you're going to be nervous.

that's my take, she was a very brave and classy lady.

[johnny]

Job I would not want, Census Taker assigned to Spahn Ranch circa 1969
brings to mind, 'it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye' as what starts off as a lark gets bone chilling, especially when you ask the whereabouts of Shorty Shea.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jul...azine/tm-61410

[johnny]

"Ruby Pearl worked on the Spahn Ranch. Pearl had known Spahn for 18 years and Shea for 15 years. She testified that Manson and members of his family came to the Spahn Ranch in the spring of 1969. In June of 1969, Shea told Pearl he had a part coming up in a motion picture which he was anxious to do. In the latter part of August 1969, "a couple of weeks" after August 16, 1969, Shea asked if he could come and stay at Pearl's home. He was very nervous. Pearl had no place for Shea to stay except in a shed. Shea did not want to stay there. Pearl drove slowly away. As she drove away Pearl saw a car drive up "real suddenly." Several Manson family members got out of the car. Pearl saw Manson, Watson, Grogan and Davis get out of the car and they spread out and approached Shea with Shea in the middle. When they were about five feet from Shea, Pearl drove out of sight. Pearl never saw or heard from Shea again."

Man, that is a car I wouldn't want to ever get inside of. Manson, Watson, Grogan and Davis. Some stone cold killers high on whatever Charlie was feeding 'em.

Very interesting background.
http://www.lsb3.com/2011/04/court-tr...ld-jerome.html



Here is Ruby Pearl at the Ranch being interviewed on the whereabouts of Shorty Shea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR_rX01IBCQ

[johnny]

interesting interview of a Tate neighbor, complete with outtakes.
'a big spooky house at night'
kind of funny watching the outtakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll-x4wrQnCs

[DonnaMc]

Job I would not want, Census Taker assigned to Spahn Ranch circa 1969
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jul...azine/tm-61410

Interesting read.

[pkstracy]

Just got my copy of Restless Souls today. Haven't started it yet. I hope it's as good as everyone on here says it is. I wonder if Debra will write or finally have her dads manuscript published or her own story about Sharon.?

[johnny]

IMO, the best things about the book were the discussions of col tate's investigation, the role of stephan kay, and getting the impact upon the family members in the 70's/80's/90's --post Helter Skelter.

[Hippo]

To Johnny:

I agree with what you said. As to what Debra said, I kind of doubt that she will publish a book. I hope I'm wrong, but I think she was just trying to discredit the other book.

[cindyt]

To Johnny:

I agree with what you said. As to what Debra said, I kind of doubt that she will publish a book. I hope I'm wrong, but I think she was just trying to discredit the other book.

I think Debra has sour grapes. I am at the part where they are fixing to bury Doris and the only time I remember Debra mentioned is way back in the beginning it mentioned something about her being a rebel who stayed in her room all the time. IDK all the facts about all the events, but she just sounds bitter. I've enjoyed reading, though it's not as good as I thought it was going to be, and I don't necessarily agree with every word.

[johnny]

i wish they would also publish more about col tate's discussions during his investigation. evidently he had a few close friends who were also skilled investigators assisting him -out of friendship-and it was col tate who initially found the connection to the manson family. it was fascinating to think that he had staked out the crime scene night after night in hopes of someone coming back and it turns out to be Straight Satan bikers that after checking out the Tate property ride back to Spahn Ranch. Col Tate tails them all the way back and stumbles upon the goings on there.

i would also like more of his interviews of Sharon's Hollywoood friends. The one with Steve McQueen and Jim and Wendy Mitchum was interesting. I wonder if he also talked with Candace Bergen, Terry Melcher, the Beach Boys, etc. etc. Like he says, a lot of them were willing to talk until the conversation turned to drugs and a possible drug burn.

The sad part is that a lot of Sharon's 'friends' were not really her friends. I say that in that few of them stood up for her in death and let the Stephen Kay and Doris Tate carry the load at those Probation Hearings.

[pkstracy]

To me , from the way the book is written you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt I mean how could they know exactly what was said what was done unless they got the person's story first hand. But at the start of the book it does make mention that they did take some literary license to weave the story. I would love to read Mr. Tate's manuscript five down at Cielo.

[Hippo]

Well, this is the whole thing that got Debra so mad, too much artistic license.

From my own perspective, which is that of a simple bystander, I think everything in that book is certainly plausible. It's not as if they're making outrageous claims. If they wanted to go over the top, they could have claimed that Col. Tate solved the case by following those bikers back to Spahn Ranch.

[Hippo]

And thank you to Johnny for the link to the census lady's story. Although I had to wonder what she was thinking, going out there by herself and believing she was going to get some sort of story angle? She was lucky to get out alive and should have taken her boss's offer of a police escort.

A census taker is a representative of the "Establishment," so what did she expect they were going to tell her that would be so valuable?