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Thread: Natalee Holloway

  1. #201
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    An article MSNBC has on the whole situation:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23072168/

    The sad thing is that a judge has decided Van Der Dip can't be detained because of the video tape. The Aruban authorities are going to appeal that decision on Tuesday. The little dinkwad has gone so far as to say he lied on the video tape because he was high on marijuana. I didn't one of the things marijuana did was make you falsely confess! I think Van Der Dip was out on the beach alone with Natalee when she collapsed. Who knows how much date rape drug they put in her drink? Just looking at that little creep, it doesn't seem that he'd share his "trophy" with the other two brothers. Also, I don't think Natalee would have willingly given her virginity to just some random guy. I think the combination of alcohol and date rape drug made her sick. I think she was probably laying on her back or stomach and aspirated on her vomit. It's just all very sad.

  2. #202
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    I find it very interesting that nearly all of us believe a very similiar scenario happened to Natalee.

    If you scour the darker underbelly of the internets, you will find some really wild theories out there. Here are a couple of the far out ones:
    1)Natalee was pregnant and too afraid to tell anyone and disappoint her family and so was planning on running away to a South America country. (WTF? with what? Her graduation money and international fugitive skills?)
    2)*Whoever* took Amy Bradlee and sold her into slavery did the same with Natalee. There is a picture floating around that purports to be Amy Bradlee and I don't know what people are smoking, but that picture is a real stretch.

    Hey, is there an Amy Bradlee thread? Or mysterious cruise ship disappearances?

  3. #203
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    Actually, the only mention of Amy Bradlee on this whole site is your post. I remember hearing about her though.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dearheart View Post
    I don't think he's lying at all

    why? because for what reason other than telling the truth would he have for referring to her in the terms he did "bitch" "whore" "tossed like an old rag"

    he blames her for all the drama he's gone through over the last 2 plus years that's why! he's a sociopath he has no remorse his overall attitude is...I did what I had to do to save me...I don't believe she died accidentally...I think all 3 of those boys had sex with her...she either was drugged and convulsed or they caused some sort of head injury to her during the assault

    "he didn't lose any sleep over it" wow! wasn't sure if she was dead or in a coma when dumped..wtf? if this were a consensual situation and she was convulsing...he should have gone for help...he didn't...he let her die or go into coma and got rid of her because I think evidence would have pointed to rape and assault

    he's a little POS and I hope he gets strung up by his puny little dutch balls!
    When this story first broke, I remember a remark being allegedly made by Joran's dad-something along the lines of no arrest is possible without a body. Am I trippin' or was this actually mentioned?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    When this story first broke, I remember a remark being allegedly made by Joran's dad-something along the lines of no arrest is possible without a body. Am I trippin' or was this actually mentioned?
    You are right. It was reported that Van Der Sloot told his son that if there is no body, there is no case.

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/ar...ing/index.html

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lita View Post
    An article MSNBC has on the whole situation:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23072168/

    The sad thing is that a judge has decided Van Der Dip can't be detained because of the video tape. The Aruban authorities are going to appeal that decision on Tuesday. The little dinkwad has gone so far as to say he lied on the video tape because he was high on marijuana. I didn't one of the things marijuana did was make you falsely confess! I think Van Der Dip was out on the beach alone with Natalee when she collapsed. Who knows how much date rape drug they put in her drink? Just looking at that little creep, it doesn't seem that he'd share his "trophy" with the other two brothers. Also, I don't think Natalee would have willingly given her virginity to just some random guy. I think the combination of alcohol and date rape drug made her sick. I think she was probably laying on her back or stomach and aspirated on her vomit. It's just all very sad.

    well what's really odd about his statement about being "high" is this....this wasn't just ONE video tape of his "confession" it was SEVERAL video tapes!!! so during which confession was he high? one of them? some of them? or ALL OF THEM??? as far as him "calling a friend" to dispose of her??? I don't believe that...I think he called on dear old daddy and daddy arranged it...why else would he be at home in bed? I don't see any other teenager or young adult saying "yeah Joran I'll dump her out at sea...go on home and to bed" I see them saying "I'll help you...what do you mean you're going home to bed??? oh no you don't!!! you're coming with me!" Nope I totally believe that mouth breathing father of his got rid of her...it would be just like him to send Joran home so he has no exact knowledge of what happened to her body

    the entire situation is just sick...and this judge in Aruba??? my god man you have the smoking gun...this little prick confessing MULTIPLE times on tape...throw is ass in jail!

  7. #207
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    What gets me is, yeah, they don't exactly have a confession on tape. But they do have his statement that he was present during a death or accidental murder, he covered it up and disposed of the body AND involved an innocent person in doing so and also that he has been lying about it ever since. Aren't THOSE things illegal?
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  8. #208
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    Report: Natalee Holloway Suspect Involved in Thai Sex Trafficking

    Monday , November 10, 2008

    ADVERTISEMENT

    A suspect in the 2005 disappearance of an Alabama teen in Aruba is involved in selling Thai women into prostitution, a Dutch TV reporter claims.
    Reporter Peter De Vries has made a second hidden-camera expose on Dutch student Joran Van der Sloot, who was believed to be with Natalee Holloway when she vanished while on a senior trip to Aruba. De Vries won an Emmy this year for another report on Van Der Sloot, 21, in which the student admits to dumping Holloway’s body after she suddenly began shaking and died as they were kissing.
    Click here for photos from the case.
    De Vries’ latest report, which was shown Sunday night on Dutch television, shows Van der Sloot telling someone posing as a sex-industry boss that he can get passports for Thai women and girls who think they are going to the Netherlands to work as dancers, DutchNews.nl reported.
    Van der Sloot makes about $13,000 for every woman sold into prostitution in the Netherlands, De Vries claims.
    “The pictures show how little respect this 21-year-old has for the lives of others,” De Vries told a Dutch newspaper. “The fact that he goes into the trafficking of women after the disappearance of Natalee is typical of him.”
    In February, judges rejected an attempt to arrest Van der Sloot for a third time in her disappearance. He was released due to insufficient evidence the first two times he was arrested.
    Aruban prosecutors had sought to detain him based on hidden-camera recordings captured by a Dutch TV crime show. In the video, Van der Sloot said Holloway collapsed on the beach after they left the bar and he called a friend to dump her body at sea.
    Joseph Tacopina, a lawyer for student Van der Sloot, said in February that his client was not responsible for the Alabama teen's death and that the tapes did not amount to a confession.
    "There was no confession, no admission of a crime by Joran on any of these tapes, which is very telling," Tacopina said on ABC's "Good Morning America."


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  9. #209
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    Holy Shit!!!!!!!!

    Nancy Grace is covering this right now!!!!!!!!

    I wonder what his large-headed Daddy has to say now that his equally large-headed son has been BUSTED WIDE OPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by cachluv; 11-10-2008 at 06:20 PM.
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  10. #210
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    i gotta watch this tonight when i get home.
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  11. #211
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    What an idiot...an asshole-idiot.
    “If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with.” - Michael Jackson

  12. #212
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    I had completely forgotten about that video of Van der Sloot confessing to his friend how she "accidentally" died and he dumped her off a boat into the water. I saw that again tonight, and his friend kept at him till he admitted he wasn't sure she was dead when he dumped her.
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  13. #213
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    I hope the punishment fits the crime.

  14. #214
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    I hope the Aruban gov't snaps out of it and helps to bring him down. Seems like all they were interested in is loss of tourism and revenue.
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  15. #215
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    It's pretty clear to me that this kid thinks he's above the law because of who his father is. Sickening.
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  16. #216
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    God this continues to be so sad.. what is a better fate. Being killed and being a sex slave in another country? *shiver*


    "I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."

  17. #217
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    When are they gonna put this creep behind bars where he belongs? He is never going to stop - he got away with murder, why shouldn't he get away with this?

  18. #218
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    I'm with you michi. I can't see anything bad ever happening to FrankenSloot. That's a big headed boy, okaaaay?
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  19. #219
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    this guy thinks he is invincible

    ""It's a mop with a tongue! Can you imagine the dingleberries?" - Mammy


  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by findadeathaddict View Post
    this guy thinks he is invincible
    Well...thus far, he HAS been

    Does Barry Manilow know you raid his wardrobe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    I'm with you michi. I can't see anything bad ever happening to FrankenSloot. That's a big headed boy, okaaaay?
    He has been and continue to think with the WRONG HEAD. He needs to take his itty bity dipstick outta his mouth and talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by findadeathaddict View Post
    this guy thinks he is invincible
    Yeah, that's the drugs talking. Druggies/alkies all develop drug/alkie 'muscles.' It's when they have these 'muscles' that they all bow up and talk big like they're some sort of big person on campus when in reality they are small people with even smaller minds. Van Der Shit needs serious time in jail so Bubba can make Van Der Shit his (Bubba) 'bitch.' Van Der Shit will start talking then.
    You call me a bitch like it's a bad thing...I may be a bitch, but I am NOT YOUR bitch...I'm not A bitch, I'm THE bitch...

  22. #222
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    why in the hell would you dump someone in the ocean because they had a seizure?? there is still a piece of the puzzle missing....there is a reason why he didn't call an ambulance

    ""It's a mop with a tongue! Can you imagine the dingleberries?" - Mammy


  23. #223
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    LOLOL--FrankenSloot should have never thrown that glass of wine on De Vries on the TV interview because now De Vries is going to be his worst nightmare. See he's been following and trying to bring down FrankenSloot since then?
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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by findadeathaddict View Post
    why in the hell would you dump someone in the ocean because they had a seizure?? there is still a piece of the puzzle missing....there is a reason why he didn't call an ambulance

    ---He didn't call an ambulance because there was something other than what we know going on. I know that's what you just said right?

    He is definitely a soul-less sociopath. He does these things then denies them, even though it's OBVIOUSLY what he did. I wonder how his Mom feels? She went on TV repeatedly to talk about what a good boy he is with morals, conscience, etc.
    Last edited by cachluv; 11-11-2008 at 12:08 PM.
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  25. #225
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    I hope they bring that twisted little sick fuck down, down,dwon.......wouldn't it be something if somehow, Daddy was somehowm linked to this mess also ?? It actually wouldn't surprise me in the least......hmmmmmmmmmm


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  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazbabee View Post
    I hope they bring that twisted little sick fuck down, down,dwon.......wouldn't it be something if somehow, Daddy was somehowm linked to this mess also ?? It actually wouldn't surprise me in the least......hmmmmmmmmmm
    good point, i have always wondered what role daddy played in all of this

    ""It's a mop with a tongue! Can you imagine the dingleberries?" - Mammy


  27. #227
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    It's my feeling daddy was part of the cover-up ...isn't he an attorney?

    Good to see he has a nemesis, and Nancy's back on his a**.

  28. #228
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    On NG, it's been said tonight that one of FrankenSloot's former girlfriends is going to give info to the police about Natalie Holloway and FrankenSloot.

    It's also being said that the Aruban authorities probably won't do anything about it.
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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giada View Post
    It's my feeling daddy was part of the cover-up ...isn't he an attorney?

    Good to see he has a nemesis, and Nancy's back on his a**.
    yes and a judge

    ""It's a mop with a tongue! Can you imagine the dingleberries?" - Mammy


  30. #230
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    You know, if Aruba does nothing, I think the States need to do something as far as hitting them where it counts.

    Like making it very very hard to go on vacation there. Or make it mandatory for an American citizen to sign a waiver that if anything happens to you, if you are a victim of crime, be aware that you have no recourse.

  31. #231
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    If he had called anyone the police would have found the date rape drug in her system..also that he had s4ex with her and I think those other guys did too..she passed out, he thought she was dead so they took her and threw her off a boat or did they? Maybe she is in Tiwian being used as a hooker???

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOVSTORM View Post
    If he had called anyone the police would have found the date rape drug in her system..also that he had s4ex with her and I think those other guys did too..she passed out, he thought she was dead so they took her and threw her off a boat or did they? Maybe she is in Tiwian being used as a hooker???

    i had the same thoughts you do.....that maybe she is alive and was sold

    also, the date rape drug scenario makes sense too - he didn't call for anyone cause he knew he would be charged with rape, so he dumped her

    ""It's a mop with a tongue! Can you imagine the dingleberries?" - Mammy


  33. #233
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    MINIMALLY you would think the government officials in Aruba, Holland and Thailand would be concerned about illegal immigration.

    He's already made a lengthy, detailed confession that was taped. Nothing happened to him.
    Last edited by cachluv; 11-11-2008 at 06:54 PM.
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  34. #234
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    I've visited Aruba (more than once) Holland but never Thailand.

    I will never ever go to Aruba again.

    They obviously thrive on tourism but don't really care what happens to them when they visit as long as they get their money.

    Ironically, Arbua is a cheap vacation destination from the States.

  35. #235
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    Aruba police pursue new lead in Holloway case

    New witness says only suspect in the case admitted his involvement



    updated 1 hour, 40 minutes ago

    SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Investigators in Aruba are pursuing new evidence in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway.

    The Prosecutors' Office says a new witness claims the only suspect in the case confessed to her that he was involved in dumping Holloway's body at sea.

    But prosecutor Hans Mos said Tuesday that more evidence is needed to build a case against Dutch college student Joran van der Sloot.

    Investigators reopened the case earlier this year based on similar admissions caught in hidden-camera recordings by a Dutch TV crime show.
    The 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Alabama, was last seen in May 2005 leaving a bar with Van der Sloot on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island.
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  36. #236
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    Another version:

    Aruba police pursue new evidence in Holloway case


    By MIKE MELIA, Associated Press Writer Mike Melia,

    Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 21 mins ago








    SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – A new witness has come forward in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway in Aruba, and prosecutors said Tuesday they are seeking more evidence against the only remaining suspect.

    A woman told Dutch police this month that Joran van der Sloot confessed to her years ago that he was involved in Holloway's disappearance, according to Ann Angela, a spokeswoman for the Aruba Prosecutors' Office.

    But the Dutch Caribbean island's chief prosecutor said authorities still lack proof they need to convict Van der Sloot, who has been arrested twice and released for lack of evidence.

    "After three years of investigating, it is very, very difficult to find that evidence," prosecutor Hans Mos told The Associated Press. "We have to be realistic."

    Holloway, an 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Alabama, was last seen in May 2005 leaving a bar in the Aruban capital Oranjestad with Van der Sloot on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the island. Extensive searches have found no trace of her.

    Investigators reopened the case earlier this year based on hidden-camera recordings made by a Dutch TV crime show. On the video, Van der Sloot says Holloway collapsed on the beach after they left the bar and that he called a friend to dump her body at sea.

    The new witness, once a friend of Van der Sloot, confirmed that he gave her roughly the same account shortly after Holloway's disappearance. But Mos said her statement does not bring authorities any closer to resolving the case.

    He also said the witness would lack credibility in court unless she explains why she waited so long to come forward.

    Attorneys for Van der Sloot did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment and there was no answer at his parents' home in Aruba.
    Van der Sloot was last known to be living in Thailand but his current whereabouts are a "mystery," Angela said.

    Angela said Aruban authorities hope to decide by the end of this year whether to prosecute Van der Sloot or close the case for good.

    Natalee Holloway's mother, Beth Holloway, did not immediately return a telephone call Tuesday seeking comment.
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  37. #237
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    First off, Van der Sloot is a jerk who probably killed and disposed of the body of Natalee Holoway. Secondly, I think if he keeps telling people how he killed her, this should be able to help put him way on murder charges.

    I used to think that Natalee might have been sold into white slavery, but after hearing that two different people have come foward with these stories he has told, I believe she is dead.

    Sad world we live in folks.

  38. #238
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    If she collapsed on the beach why would they dump the body? Mind you he was drunk too. It is very strange but let Natalee Hollaway be a warning to all young girls in strange countries.

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    If he was drunk and scared, he would probably panic and call his friends to hide the body. IMO, I think maybe Natalee did go willingly with him that night, but passed out due to intoxication. Van Der Sloot probably had sex with her, maybe even hit her, she passed out, he called friends to help him hide her body, and they dumped her in the sea.

    I'm going to be brutally honest, I dont think they will ever find out what happened to her body. If he dumped it in the ocean, its gone. And if he burried her, the evidence on her body may be minimal.

    Very sad indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebird14 View Post
    If he was drunk and scared, he would probably panic and call his friends to hide the body. IMO, I think maybe Natalee did go willingly with him that night, but passed out due to intoxication. Van Der Sloot probably had sex with her, maybe even hit her, she passed out, he called friends to help him hide her body, and they dumped her in the sea.

    I'm going to be brutally honest, I dont think they will ever find out what happened to her body. If he dumped it in the ocean, its gone. And if he burried her, the evidence on her body may be minimal.

    Very sad indeed.
    According to CNN they have a new witness that puts Jorn and his father ( the powerful judge guy) at the location of a pond that was never searched at 4:30 am the night she disappeared..
    Jorn was wet and wearing only one sneaker ( he was never able to produce the sneakers he was wearing for authorities).
    Whether he killed her or she died from a drug she took freely or that was slipped to her it seems he called daddy to bail him out and Daddy obliged personally.
    Given that he was recently videotaped promising to obtain Thai girls (his current country of residence)through subterfuge for prostitution in the Netherlands this guy is something you scrape off your shoe in general.
    The fact that he describes disposing of Holloway "like an old rag" in one of his taped confessions tells you this is not some nice kid that lost his cool when his "date" quit breathing. This guy is shy a few points on his personal moral compass.
    I think she will never be recovered but hopefullt this guy will end up doing hard time. I predict that if he does it will be in a nice clean cushy dutch jail and not in Aruba.
    Regards,
    mary

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    Stsfirstmate,
    I wasnt trying to insinuate that natalee went with Jorn that night for sex or anything. I really just think she probably met him, decided she wanted to hang out with him, and he probably forced himself on her. She tried to run or was too intoxicated and he incapasitated her. I'm only saying that this guy got away with her murder/disappearance (so far). I really hope this new witness helps to put Jorn away. I also didnt mean to insinuate that this guy is a nice normal young man. Obviously, he is amoral guy who probably has no soul.

    Sincerest apologies to anyone who read this and thought I was defending Jorn.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebird14 View Post
    Stsfirstmate,
    I wasnt trying to insinuate that natalee went with Jorn that night for sex or anything. I really just think she probably met him, decided she wanted to hang out with him, and he probably forced himself on her. She tried to run or was too intoxicated and he incapasitated her. I'm only saying that this guy got away with her murder/disappearance (so far). I really hope this new witness helps to put Jorn away. I also didnt mean to insinuate that this guy is a nice normal young man. Obviously, he is amoral guy who probably has no soul.

    Sincerest apologies to anyone who read this and thought I was defending Jorn.
    Bluebird I did not sense or mean to insinuate you were defending him. My tone was just because he just seems like a nasty piece of work with powerful people defending him.
    He doesn't seem to have a spec of remorse and his antisocial behavior towards women continues unchecked (trying to sell the Thai women ( girls actually most were underage).
    My response was not aimed at you honest. You have nothing to explain or apologize for. Post on Bluebird!
    Regards,
    Mary

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebird14 View Post
    Stsfirstmate,
    I wasnt trying to insinuate that natalee went with Jorn that night for sex or anything. I really just think she probably met him, decided she wanted to hang out with him, and he probably forced himself on her. She tried to run or was too intoxicated and he incapasitated her. I'm only saying that this guy got away with her murder/disappearance (so far). I really hope this new witness helps to put Jorn away. I also didnt mean to insinuate that this guy is a nice normal young man. Obviously, he is amoral guy who probably has no soul.

    Sincerest apologies to anyone who read this and thought I was defending Jorn.

    She probably did go with him to have sex. Let's not make Natalee Hollaway into some innocent virgin who just thought this boy wanted to "hang out". It is a fact that she was heavily intoxicated. It doesn't change the fact that he may have killed her. He may have gotten to rough and she changed her mind. Will we ever know? He is a creep. His name is Joran, not Jorn.



    Last edited by John Connor; 11-25-2008 at 03:00 PM.

  44. #244
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    With respect, I think she probably did 'go with him' to lay him. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, she was too young for that and hopefully she/they were ready to use birth control, etc...I mean to say that wanting to have sex with someone isn't necessarily wrong. But I do think she left with him to have sex with him. She was a nice girl I believe, but he's a fucking monster. I could see in his face from Day #1 that he thinks really highly of himself. Now we find out exactly what he thinks of women. I wonder how his Momma feels.

    I wonder what will happen to him now, if anything at all. The Aruban authorities have a confession from his own lips and still refuse to do anything. They even have witnesses. They did an investigation that sucked. I don't think anything will happen to him regarding Natalee Holloway's disappearance/death. I think he'll get some trouble for the pimp thing, but not much. I think his justice will have to be something Karma-related.
    Last edited by cachluv; 11-22-2008 at 08:34 AM.
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    "So, what, no fuckin' ziti now?"

  45. #245
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    She was 18 so I hardly think she was too young to be sexually active. She just met the wrong guy that night. He is attractive and probably very smooth.
    He will probably end up in the trunk of a car with a bullet in his head and his cock in his mouth.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeunjames View Post
    She was 18 so I hardly think she was too young to be sexually active. She just met the wrong guy that night. He is attractive and probably very smooth.
    He will probably end up in the trunk of a car with a bullet in his head and his cock in his mouth.
    ---What I meant was, she was too young to be going to a foreign country and picking a strange guy to go off alone with. I daresay an actual adult would be able to choose wisely under those circumstances, let alone a brand new adult. That was too much of a large decision for her to be old enough to have made that balance successfully.

    I don't think 18 is too young to be sexually active, under the right circumstances. But it's too young to be having sex with strangers.
    Just MO.

    That said, the Soprano's like ending you've described sounds fitting to me.
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    "So, what, no fuckin' ziti now?"

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    ---What I meant was, she was too young to be going to a foreign country and picking a strange guy to go off alone with. I daresay an actual adult would be able to choose wisely under those circumstances, let alone a brand new adult. That was too much of a large decision for her to be old enough to have made that balance successfully.

    I don't think 18 is too young to be sexually active, under the right circumstances. But it's too young to be having sex with strangers.
    Just MO.

    That said, the Soprano's like ending you've described sounds fitting to me.

    Being 18 and fucking strangers in foreign countries sounds pretty hot to me. Just MO

  48. #248
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    I doesn't sound like Van der Sloot was a beginner at this sort of thing (picking up girls, I mean, not murder). I wonder if there are any other girls out there who can testify as to his M/O. I realize that's not the evidence you need to prosecute, but it would help them to know if they're barking up the right tree.
    You say you've lost your mind? Well, if you ever find it again, please look and see if mine is there too!

  49. #249
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    I think it came out during the intial investigation of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, that Joran liked to hit on girls, and tourists in particular.

    This is a guy who's still in high school, who is hanging out ON SCHOOL NIGHTS, at casinos and bars. His father, the wannabe judge, used to accompany Joran on occasion to the casinos.

    Also, Joran lived in a guest house on his parent's property, not in their actual home. I always thought his mom was a drunk or a pill popper. Look at her. Something ain't right with the lady.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Watson View Post
    I think it came out during the intial investigation of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, that Joran liked to hit on girls, and tourists in particular.

    This is a guy who's still in high school, who is hanging out ON SCHOOL NIGHTS, at casinos and bars. His father, the wannabe judge, used to accompany Joran on occasion to the casinos.

    Also, Joran lived in a guest house on his parent's property, not in their actual home. I always thought his mom was a drunk or a pill popper. Look at her. Something ain't right with the lady.
    Yeah, it does sound like there's plenty wrong there... one point I should mention is that in most continental European countries, judges occupy civil service, not political positions. It generally takes quite some time to train for the position.
    You say you've lost your mind? Well, if you ever find it again, please look and see if mine is there too!

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