View Poll Results: Is it time to head for the hills due to Obama's re-election?

Voters
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  • Yes, grabbing my shotgun and canteen as we speak.

    4 21.05%
  • No, that's foolishness!

    15 78.95%
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Thread: 2012 Presidential election

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    With all due respect, if you can't see how bad he has turned out as President, I don't know how to explain it to you. Even as bad as the economy is, Perry has managed to keep Texas running quite well compared to the rest of the US. We're very close to a double dip recession and Obama seems comfortable with the fact that America came very close to defaulting on her debts for the first time in history. We seem to be divided more than ever on lines of race and class. He promised transparency and has provided nothing close to that. I realize that the mainstream media wants to pretend that Perry will be a second coming of George W. Bush, but the fact is that they really didn't even get along much less have the same agenda.
    Is anyone going to answer that question? I agree with you that you don't know how to explain it.

    Texas is not the economic success Perry is touting. Without the stimulus funds that he attacks Obama on, his state would be a economic disaster. He used the stimulus to pay the huge deficit he rang up. Perry didn't put the oil in the ground that is powering the Texas economy, though I'm sure he wants credit for that too.

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    With all due respect, if you can't see how bad he has turned out as President, I don't know how to explain it to you. Even as bad as the economy is, Perry has managed to keep Texas running quite well compared to the rest of the US. We're very close to a double dip recession and Obama seems comfortable with the fact that America came very close to defaulting on her debts for the first time in history. We seem to be divided more than ever on lines of race and class. He promised transparency and has provided nothing close to that. I realize that the mainstream media wants to pretend that Perry will be a second coming of George W. Bush, but the fact is that they really didn't even get along much less have the same agenda.
    Oh here we go again, the "mainstream" media is in cahoots with the liberal elites' agenda to submit the US to the yoke of Socialist tyranny.

    In related news, the Minnesota Twins and the Chicago WhiteSox are conspiring to ensure that the Cleveland Indians go all the way this year.

    I wish



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  3. #753
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    Rick Perry Riding A Pre-Existing Wave?

    This is a good article that talks about whether Perry can lay all claim to the glowing stats about jobs and the economy in Texas.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/bu...1&pagewanted=2




    Some highlights -

    But some economists as well as Perry skeptics suggest that Mr. Perry stumbled into the Texas miracle. They say that the governor has essentially put Texas on autopilot for 11 years, and it was the state’s oil and gas boom — not his political leadership — that kept the state afloat. They also doubt that the Texas model, regardless of Mr. Perry’s role in shaping it, could be effectively applied to the nation’s far more complex economic problems.
    “Because the Texas economy has been prosperous during his tenure as governor, he has not had to make the draconian choices that one would have to make in the White House,” said Bryan W. Brown, chairman of the Rice University economics department and a critic of Mr. Perry’s economic record.

    And -

    And if Mr. Perry were to win the nomination, he would face critics, among them Democrats, who have long complained that the state’s economic health came at a steep price: a long-term hollowing out of its prospects because of deep cuts to education spending, low rates of investment in research and development, and a disparity in the job market that confines many blacks and Hispanics to minimum-wage jobs without health insurance.


    Natural resources -


    The oil and gas industry now delivers roughly $325 billion a year to the state, directly and indirectly. It brings in $13 billion in state tax receipts, or roughly 40 percent of the total, financing up to 20 percent of the state budget.


    “He’s been lucky,” said Bernard L. Weinstein, associate director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. “Obviously, neither the governor nor public policy in Texas has pushed oil prices up, and clearly the technological innovation has created a whole new industry in Texas.”


    BTW, the article does give a nod to Perry here and there in the article, but there are alot of questions about credit taking.
    Last edited by endsleigh03; 08-27-2011 at 05:03 PM.
    The only difference between a death hag and the rest of the world is that we don't DENY we're fascinated by death.... (Tebssis)

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    Is anyone going to answer that question? I agree with you that you don't know how to explain it.

    Texas is not the economic success Perry is touting. Without the stimulus funds that he attacks Obama on, his state would be a economic disaster. He used the stimulus to pay the huge deficit he rang up. Perry didn't put the oil in the ground that is powering the Texas economy, though I'm sure he wants credit for that too.
    Well I heard someone say once "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this and I'm going to back off of political discussions because they seem to get rather heated and I don't want to disrespect anyone's opinion. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. The election will be coming sooner than we think and its gonna be exciting to watch. Take care.

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    Is anyone going to answer that question?

    Texas is not the economic success Perry is touting. Without the stimulus funds that he attacks Obama on, his state would be a economic disaster. He used the stimulus to pay the huge deficit he rang up. Perry didn't put the oil in the ground that is powering the Texas economy, though I'm sure he wants credit for that too.

    This is exactly right. Idiot Perry yammered on and on and on about being against the stimulus money, then he turned around and accepted it, using 97% of the funds to balance the Texas budget. Hypocrite.

    Stimulus-Hating Gov. Rick Perry Used Stimulus to Balance Texas Budget


    http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily...udget-20110125

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdolen View Post
    This is exactly right. Idiot Perry yammered on and on and on about being against the stimulus money, then he turned around and accepted it, using 97% of the funds to balance the Texas budget. Hypocrite.

    Stimulus-Hating Gov. Rick Perry Used Stimulus to Balance Texas Budget


    http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily...udget-20110125
    Thanks for posting that.
    The only difference between a death hag and the rest of the world is that we don't DENY we're fascinated by death.... (Tebssis)

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    Is anyone going to answer that question?
    I've answered it in many ways and many times. I've been quite nice as well and have done so without the name calling. But no one believes it on here so what is the point. It seems pointless.

    Notice my decrease of posts in the political sections? Some see it as defeat but actually I'm trying to preserve what brown hair I have left.

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebud666 View Post
    Oh here we go again, the "mainstream" media is in cahoots with the liberal elites' agenda to submit the US to the yoke of Socialist tyranny.
    I think both the left and the right agree that this largely the case minus the latter part.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    I think both the left and the right agree that this largely the case minus the latter part.
    Then I'm sure looking forward to the Indian's sweeping this year's Series.



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  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebud666 View Post
    Then I'm sure looking forward to the Indian's sweeping this year's Series.
    I was referring to the part where you stated the media is in a conspiracy with the left on socialism. I don't buy the conspiracy part. I didn't even read the baseball part of your post. Seemed irrelevant in the discussion.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    I was referring to the part where you stated the media is in a conspiracy with the left on socialism. I don't buy the conspiracy part. I didn't even read the baseball part of your post. Seemed irrelevant in the discussion.
    McCarthy much?

    Baseball is never irrelevant, especially not the Cleveland Indians.



    You be careful out among them English.
    I'm a wobbly, he's a wobbly, she's a wobbly, we're all wobblies - wouldn't you like to be a wobbly, too?
    Don't mess with the banjo player - he's hard core, dude!
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  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebud666 View Post
    McCarthy much?
    I must be off my game today because I don't get it. How is my belief that the media and the left are not in a socialist conspiracy McCarthyism? Or maybe you are referring to a different McCarthy?

  13. #763
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    Im confused. I thought we were all in agreement that the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people under the supervision of the reverse vampires.......
    Suck it.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichabodius View Post
    Im confused. I thought we were all in agreement that the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people under the supervision of the reverse vampires.......

    are importing aliens in the shape of lizards who now live inside Mt Shasta

    Simple!

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    I think both the left and the right agree that this largely the case minus the latter part.

    Well, I certainly don't think so.

  16. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipmatekate View Post
    Well, I certainly don't think so.
    Here is a Harvard piece on the subject for your reading enjoyment. They took an almost scientific approach to the subject.

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/fac.../bw04_0614.pdf

  17. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    Here is a Harvard piece on the subject for your reading enjoyment. They took an almost scientific approach to the subject.

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/fac.../bw04_0614.pdf

    Somewhat out of date.............

    Just sayin

  18. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipmatekate View Post
    Somewhat out of date.............

    Just sayin
    You are right, it is a much more profound condition now. I was trying to find a source that the left would find credible. Guess you can't win for trying.

  19. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    Here is a Harvard piece on the subject for your reading enjoyment. They took an almost scientific approach to the subject.

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/fac.../bw04_0614.pdf
    Depending who owns the relevant media company, there is a bias towards the liberal left or conservative right. Bitching and moaning about a bias either way is pointless.

    Do you want an admission that there is a bias towards the liberal left? Fine, there is a bias towards the liberal left in the media, depending upon who owns it.

    Do you want an admission that there is a bias towards the conservative right? Fine, there is a bias towards the conservative right in the media, depending upon who owns it.

    Grow up. Stop trying to spin bullshit. Treat us like mature rational thinking human beings, not unthinking morons. We all know it works both ways. Quit squealing like a stuck pig when an article goes against your bias, and crowing like a bird on high when you find one that confirms it.

    Again, the media owners swing both ways, there is media bias both ways.
    Last edited by neilmpenny; 08-29-2011 at 07:17 AM.
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  20. #770
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    "It is a well known fact that reality has liberal bias."
    -Colbert

  21. #771
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    Ron Paul Kookyness. In 2008, Hurricane Ike hit parts of the Texas Coast. Paul voted against a bill to send millions of dollars in federal aid to the area, which included his district.(how's that for looking out, for the people who vote you in?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_939465.html

  22. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Depending who owns the relevant media company, there is a bias towards the liberal left or conservative right. Bitching and moaning about a bias either way is pointless.

    Do you want an admission that there is a bias towards the liberal left? Fine, there is a bias towards the liberal left in the media, depending upon who owns it.

    Do you want an admission that there is a bias towards the conservative right? Fine, there is a bias towards the conservative right in the media, depending upon who owns it.

    Grow up. Stop trying to spin bullshit. Treat us like mature rational thinking human beings, not unthinking morons. We all know it works both ways. Quit squealing like a stuck pig when an article goes against your bias, and crowing like a bird on high when you find one that confirms it.

    Again, the media owners swing both ways, there is media bias both ways.

    Yep

  23. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Grow up. Stop trying to spin bullshit. Treat us like mature rational thinking human beings, not unthinking morons. We all know it works both ways. Quit squealing like a stuck pig when an article goes against your bias, and crowing like a bird on high when you find one that confirms it.

    Again, the media owners swing both ways, there is media bias both ways.
    Are you directing that at me?? What is your problem? I didn't even bring it up in the first place I was commenting on something someone else said, they disagreed so I posted supporting material. Nothing at all out of the ordinary in the correspondence except the part where you pop off telling me to "grow up" and I "queal like a stuck pig", what the fuck is that?

    If you don't like me just say it and move on instead of hurdling insults that do nothing more than derail a perfectly legitimate conversation.

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  25. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Depending who owns the relevant media company, there is a bias towards the liberal left or conservative right. Bitching and moaning about a bias either way is pointless.

    .
    BTW, I was speaking of mainstream media so you show me one source that identifies ABC, CBS, MSNBC, NBC or CNN as conservative and I will concede. The only mainstream media outlet I can confirm as conservative is ofcourse FOX.

    I'm not heart broken by this. I don't care I was just trying to point out a reality.

    I have never been one to lead an opinion with bias. This is just what it is. Thats why I look at all sources on a subject.
    Last edited by Paulination; 08-29-2011 at 10:52 AM.

  26. #776
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    I think the whole left wing bias idea is bullshit. Yes, MSNBC is biased, but NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and ABC pretty much just report the news. They don't have opinionated blowhards trying to push a agenda. CNN has analyst from both sides of the aisle and you are free to make up your own mind. Right wingers are lead to believe that any news not coming from Fox is not true. More GOP fear mongering to keep their base brainwashed into voting fore their cause. How else can you explain people in the poorest red states continually voting for candidates that do nothing in their best interest over and over again. This country is being sold out from under us by corporatist wolves in religious sheep clothing.
    Last edited by JefeStone; 08-29-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  27. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    I think the whole left wing bias idea is bullshit. Yes, MSNBC is biased, but NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and ABC pretty much just report the news. They don't have opinionated blowhards trying to push a agenda. CNN has analyst from both sides of the aisle and you are free to make up your own mind. Right wingers are lead to believe that any news not coming from Fox is not true. More GOP fear mongering to keep their base brainwashed into voting fore their cause. How else can you explain people in the poorest red states continually voting for candidates that do nothing in their best interest over and over again. This country is being sold out from under us by corporatist wolves in religious sheep clothing.

    I agree and often wonder why these idiots (Rick Perry) keep getting elected.
    Are people really that stupid? Apparently so.
    Last edited by JefeStone; 08-29-2011 at 03:34 PM.

  28. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipmatekate View Post
    I agree and often wonder why these idiots (Rick Perry) keep getting elected.
    Are people really that stupid? Apparently so.
    It works for them. Keep the base pissed and uninformed.

  29. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    I think the whole left wing bias idea is bullshit. Yes, MSNBC is biased, but NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and ABC pretty much just report the news. They don't have opinionated blowhards trying to push a agenda. CNN has analyst from both sides of the aisle and you are free to make up your own mind. Right wingers are lead to believe that any news not coming from Fox is not true. More GOP fear mongering to keep their base brainwashed into voting fore their cause. How else can you explain people in the poorest red states continually voting for candidates that do nothing in their best interest over and over again. This country is being sold out from under us by corporatist wolves in religious sheep clothing.
    Voting for candidates who do nothing for you is something that I cannot understand and makes no sense.

    And doing it again and again?

    I got into a heated debate over this very thing just a couple weeks ago with two people I know.

    I said ARE YOU STUPID, why would you support a party who will never do anything to help move you and people like you forward with the issues that really affect your lives?

    Both those people have health issues and no insurance. Thats just for starters. But come election time they will trot right down to cast their vote for the 'pubs.

    It's ignorance. And you should hear 'em defend it.
    The only difference between a death hag and the rest of the world is that we don't DENY we're fascinated by death.... (Tebssis)

  30. #780
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    Oh, the high blood pressure of it all
    The only difference between a death hag and the rest of the world is that we don't DENY we're fascinated by death.... (Tebssis)

  31. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    It works for them. Keep the base pissed and uninformed.

    Kinda sums it up..........

  32. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by endsleigh03 View Post
    Voting for candidates who do nothing for you is something that I cannot understand and makes no sense.

    And doing it again and again?

    I got into a heated debate over this very thing just a couple weeks ago with two people I know.

    I said ARE YOU STUPID, why would you support a party who will never do anything to help move you and people like you forward with the issues that really affect your lives?

    Both those people have health issues and no insurance. Thats just for starters. But come election time they will trot right down to cast their vote for the 'pubs.

    It's ignorance. And you should hear 'em defend it.

    Mind boggling isn't it?
    I wonder what point they THINK they are making?
    Because it just points out that they are completely closed off to any suggestions that do not come from the right.
    Bizarre

  33. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdolen View Post
    So the GOP nominee choices are limited to Larry, Mo and Curly?!?


    I find it unfortunate a well educated man, knowledgeable on the Constitution, is placed in a position of, "janitor for the previous presidency."

    No one, in either party, could clean up the Bush mess.
    I think gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman ... Arnold Schwarzenegger

  34. #784
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    IDK...it truly mystifies me as well. So many sheeple just close their eyes real tight, stick a finger in each ear and keep chanting "nananananana" as loud as they can. Do they think God is going to bestow favor on all the politicians who loudly proclaim to be "Christ followers", therefore that should resolve all problems and issues? Come on. Ignorance truly does run rampant.

  35. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    I think the whole left wing bias idea is bullshit. Yes, MSNBC is biased, but NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and ABC pretty much just report the news. They don't have opinionated blowhards trying to push a agenda. CNN has analyst from both sides of the aisle and you are free to make up your own mind. Right wingers are lead to believe that any news not coming from Fox is not true. More GOP fear mongering to keep their base brainwashed into voting fore their cause. How else can you explain people in the poorest red states continually voting for candidates that do nothing in their best interest over and over again. This country is being sold out from under us by corporatist wolves in religious sheep clothing.
    Certainly true of Fox ... directed by f****** Murdoch who is not an American, and pushes his own agenda.

    Maddow and Olbermann, when he was with MSNBC, simply tell it as it is.
    I think gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman ... Arnold Schwarzenegger

  36. #786
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    Michele Bachmann was in Naples, yesterday I think, and she was saying she supports drilling for oil in the Florida Everglades, if it can be done safely.

    Uh-huh. Safely.

    I get it that we need less dependence on foreign oil, but we should be looking at alternatives.

    There is no safely about it. They go in there and they will disrupt and upset the balance.

    Because that is what always ends up happening.

    I hate everything this woman stands for.
    Last edited by endsleigh03; 08-29-2011 at 04:52 PM.
    The only difference between a death hag and the rest of the world is that we don't DENY we're fascinated by death.... (Tebssis)

  37. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post

    I have never been one to lead an opinion with bias.
    Quite possibly the understatement of the century.
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  38. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giada View Post
    Certainly true of Fox ... directed by f****** Murdoch who is not an American, and pushes his own agenda.
    Murdoch is a US citizen. He had to forgo Australian citizenship in order to attain his American media empire.
    I am a sick puppy....woof woof!!!

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  39. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Quite possibly the understatement of the century.
    If you want to keep taking jabs, why don't you just put me on ignore. I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation and your trying to get under my skin. Why, I have no idea. Just wish you would get it off your chest so you could move on.

  40. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    I think the whole left wing bias idea is bullshit. Yes, MSNBC is biased, but NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS and ABC pretty much just report the news.
    Here is Mark Halperin, political director for ABC news admitting that conservatives have reason to be suspicious of the mainstream media and they "have to do better".

    That is as close to an admission as you will find.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eajq0w_MsF8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giada View Post


    I find it unfortunate a well educated man, knowledgeable on the Constitution, is placed in a position of, "janitor for the previous presidency."

    No one, in either party, could clean up the Bush mess.
    A quarter of the Democrats say they want another candidate than Obama.
    Obama has a 38% approval rating.
    Obama has also spent most of his time in political office running for another political office.
    Just saying that his chances if being reelected are not there.
    People need jobs. That is the major focus of the 2012 election.
    I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his pay-roll.

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    Need I remind everyone that it took the National Enquirer to go after John Edwards. The mainstream media was not doing it.
    There is a lot to learn from alternative sources.
    Obama's parents were never really married and his father was a womanizing, drinker, polygamist.
    His mother was a knocked up teenager.
    Obama was raised by his white grandparents.
    Why is everything about Obama so romanticized.
    They went over the polygamy in Romney's background but not Obama's
    Last edited by coconn04; 08-30-2011 at 06:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulination View Post
    Here is Mark Halperin, political director for ABC news admitting that conservatives have reason to be suspicious of the mainstream media and they "have to do better".

    That is as close to an admission as you will find.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eajq0w_MsF8
    Is it the same conservative analyst that famously called Obama a "dick".? Not you best source of proof.
    Last edited by JefeStone; 08-30-2011 at 07:07 AM.

  44. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconn04 View Post
    Need I remind everyone that it took the National Enquirer to go after John Edwards. The mainstream media was not doing it.
    There is a lot to learn from alternative sources.
    Obama's parents were never really married and his father was a womanizing, drinker, polygamist.
    His mother was a knocked up teenager.
    Obama was raised by his white grandparents.
    Why is everything about Obama so romanticized.
    They went over the polygamy in Romney's background but not Obama's
    I herebye declare that political satire has become obsolete.



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  45. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconn04 View Post
    Need I remind everyone that it took the National Enquirer to go after John Edwards. The mainstream media was not doing it.
    There is a lot to learn from alternative sources.
    Obama's parents were never really married and his father was a womanizing, drinker, polygamist.
    His mother was a knocked up teenager.
    Obama was raised by his white grandparents.
    Why is everything about Obama so romanticized.
    They went over the polygamy in Romney's background but not Obama's

    Why do you believe every right wing talking point Fox throws at you?
    Have you tried thinking for yourself?

  46. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    Is it the same conservative analyst that famously called Obama a "dick".? Not you best source of proof.

    There is no "proof"
    Just right wing hysteria
    Christ the media was so muzzled during Dumbyas reign it was frightening.

    Sheesh

  47. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconn04 View Post
    Need I remind everyone that it took the National Enquirer to go after John Edwards. The mainstream media was not doing it.
    There is a lot to learn from alternative sources.
    Obama's parents were never really married and his father was a womanizing, drinker, polygamist.
    His mother was a knocked up teenager.
    Obama was raised by his white grandparents.
    Why is everything about Obama so romanticized.
    They went over the polygamy in Romney's background but not Obama's
    He is romanticised for precisely the reasons you state. He got the presidency in spite of his background and upbringing.

    This is why your ilk are so dour. Everything is shifting mirrors, unsubstantiated 'facts' and window dressing. You deal in abstraction and distraction. Anything with any form of vitality or spunk has the energy systematically sucked out of it. Like a spider devouring it's prey.

    This is why you would leave America like an empty husk, a barren landscape.

    You guys take the fun out of being American.
    I am a sick puppy....woof woof!!!

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  48. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    He is romanticised for precisely the reasons you state. He got the presidency in spite of his background and upbringing.

    This is why your ilk are so dour. Everything is shifting mirrors, unsubstantiated 'facts' and window dressing. You deal in abstraction and distraction. Anything with any form of vitality or spunk has the energy systematically sucked out of it. Like a spider devouring it's prey.

    This is why you would leave America like an empty husk, a barren landscape.

    You guys take the fun out of being American.
    I don't think most people know Obama's background.
    They never got into a lot of stuff that they went after the other candidates for.
    Obama was never poor.
    Why go after Romney when there is polygamy in Obama's family?
    I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his pay-roll.

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  49. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    Is it the same conservative analyst that famously called Obama a "dick".? Not you best source of proof.
    Yup, the same one who was critisized by the conservatives during the Kerry/Bush election for the pro-Kerry memo he sent to the ABC news staff.

  50. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipmatekate View Post
    Why do you believe every right wing talking point Fox throws at you?
    Have you tried thinking for yourself?
    So, John Edwards did not cheat on his wife, lied about a love child and used campaign money to cover it up?

    Obama's parents were married?

    Obama's mom was not a teenager when she got pregnant?

    Obama was not raised by his grandparents?

    His grandparents are not white?

    I'm just trying to figure out which one of these "talking points" should not be believed.

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