a random thought I had....
WHOMEVER ever did it...has to have been more then one person (WM3) being as though there were 3 kids OR one person that all 3kids were scared enough of to keep them all together (hodges/someone they knew).
For those who want to view it, here is a link to the CBS 48 Hrs. documentary that aired last night
I havent's seen the Paradise Lost doc, but from what I've read, the 48 Hrs show probably isn't much different. It didn't really convince me the WM3 are innocent. Their supporters have tossed out a lot of red herrings, which sows confusion. But if you go to the callahn.8K web site and read the documents, a lot of their info can be debunked.
Basic facts I'm looking at:
The killings took place in a fairly narrow time frame
The killer(s) likely knew them and was familiar with the area
The killer was a sexual sadist - their injuries appear consistent with that. They were bound and tortured. Lack of evidence of sexual assault is explained by the fact they were in underwater.
They were possibly abducted from the Robin Hood woods, killed elsewhere and their bodies dumped back at the woods. I'm not sure about this one.
Two of the boys died from drowning and head injuries, so, if abducted they weren't taken far away.
The killer(s) left the children's clothing at the crime scene, in the water. If they were killed elsewhere, wouldn't it have been disposed of?
Parents, police and friends who searched the woods that night didn't see them there. Not surprising, given it was dark and the kids were underwater.
The defenders of WM3 are now pointing a finger at Terry Hobbs. He's a creepy individual, but I'm not sure how he could have done it in the given time frame, especially when the other kids families began searching for them so early.
Just a few thoughts. The cops and prosecutor may have made some mistakes and certainly a number of witnesses concocted stories in hopes of getting the reward money, but I'm not sure it changed the outcome.
Okay, watching the show really brought a lot of things back. I had forgotten a lot of details. I read one of the books, I realized when I looked it up tonight. I'll reread it so I can comment on it, too.
One of my biggest questions is why hasn't it happened again, if they are innocent. People who commit crimes like this rarely stop. They want to do it again.
Byers got crazier & crazier & he was an obvious choice. I think he might have just been a long time alcoholic. He talks like it, looks like it, & I would not be surprised OR blame him if he is.
And I agree that a dad or step dad or anyone else living in the house with any of the boys was likely to transfer hairs to their clothes. I can't trust Terry Hobbs' ex wife b/c they are divorced & she seems to really hate him. That could certainly color someone's opinions of their character. I think that in this case, it's terry's turn to be the scapegoat. Byers was proven innocent, so they've moved on to Terry. I think he sounded like a great suspect on the show!
I agree that the Bojangles man is irrelevant. It had to be someone who knew the area & knew the boys. A random homeless man could not have done it.
Damien admitting to people he did it "as a joke" is disturbing to me. Why? Because that's not something people joke about. Rather, it's not something you say to someone, then later pretend you were joking at the time. That doesn't make sense.
I also thought it was creepy that Echols thought it would be great when kids in West Memphis talked about him for years to come, as the boogeyman. Yikes. And as for his wife...well, I have plenty of opinions of her. Nuts is one.
As far as the 3 being discovered muddy & bloody when they got home, I don't think any of them had much parental supervision.
I personally am not convinced these kids murdered anyone, but what I am really disturbed about is that one is on death row and there is just not enough evidence to prove or disprove this case.
I really had hope that our system was better than this. A new trial is really needed.
If anyone is interested, Free the West Memphis 3 on facebook:
First of all, the 'expert' who testified that this killing was a 'Satanic ritual' was a fraud. He has been debunked many times. I am not a Satanist, but I have studied it so that I would know what it is about. What I have found is that Satanists do not believe in hurting children or animals, because they are innocent creatures and should be protected.
The jury was tainted, and should have been dismissed. The Foreman of the jury has admitted to taking Misskelly's guilty sentence into consideration, when it was not admitted into evidence. He had read that Misskelly had been found guilty, and had decided that if he was guilty, the other two must be, as well.
The same judge that presided over the initial hearings is the one who has overseen all the requests for a new trial. Of course he's going to den y the requests. No one likes to admit that they may have made mistakes.
The WM3 may be guilty, but then, they may not be. I'd rather let a guilty man out than execute an innocent one. There is enough reasonable doubt that the three men should be granted new trials. If there is a new trial with the new evidence, and they are again found guilty, then I'll believe justice has been done. Until then, I see this as a judicial miscarriage.
I agree that the judge shouldn't be the one getting to turn them down again & again. An impartial judge should see it. That's really absurd. And scary!
there seems to be enough doubt to get a new trial.
the wife was creepy as hell, but i think all prison groupies are an odd lot.
the stepfather did not seem truthful to me, but why is echols so *flat* effect? if i was blamed for something i did not do, i think i would state it with much more fervor.
the whole thing is fucked up.
Paradise Lost and Paradise Lost 2: Revelations
well if johnny depp says so its good enuff 4 me
That is also true Mel306. I honestly do not know if the 3 convicted are guilty or not. I do not, however, believe there was enough evidence to convict them. I feel like everyone, not just jurors, felt like the police had arrested these kids so they must be guilty. There was a lot of fear and anger going on around here at that time and I don't think the kids ever stood a chance once they were arrested. One thing I agree with Damien's wife is, When do the police not look at the parent's 1st in a case like this? And Terry Hobbs wasn't even interviewed back then.
Last edited by mdespain38; 03-01-2010 at 07:26 PM.
Like many people, I too have spent an inordinate amount of time researching this case. A conspiracy to convict these three ruthless killers is so far-fetched and impossible because of all the people involved. The jury, after weighing what evidence was available to them, convicted these three monsters; if the jury's decision is good enough for a court of law, then it is good enough for me. Did the investigator's make lots of mistakes? Of course they did. No one is perfect, but based on what I have read, everything points to the three that are now imprisoned. There is no doubt crappy police work is responsible for some of the confusion and rumors, but just because lots of mistakes were made, it doesn't mean these three scumbags are innocent either. The only reason I believe so many people have joined the WM3's cause, is because they want to belong to something, whether it's something they really believe in or not. They really could care less if justice was served; they just want their five minutes of fame. I'm sure many of the WM3 supporters are people who like to disagree with the general population on anything, just to disagree; they like to be known for their highly unpopular opinions. joS3ph
I wholeheartedly agree with all of what you've said. I think you really nailed it. I realize that some do truly believe the hype. Some of the members here for example really seem to believe in their innocence. But for the vast majority of the WM3ers, you are exactly right.
I think if people just watch the first movie, and they find that Damien has sort of a rock-star appeal, just that sways people toward thinking they're innocent.
Damien's psychiatric history is pretty awful--his own parents were afraid of him.
That doesn't make him guilty, but when he tries to claim that he was convicted because he wears black clothing, it's pretty easy to see that he's lying.
I wanted to add that Damien acts a certain way in the very structured prison system. Many people do better in prison because they need the strong boundaries and structured activities.
However, if they were released, they would revert to their previous behavior, which includes LOTS of impulse-control problems.
I was not very familiar with this case before watching 48 hours. I find it surprising that 2 of the parents who would have loved to have killed the WM3 back then now believe they are innocent especially the dad of one of the boys.
oh & pam hobbs(stevie branch's mother) changes her mind depending on how mad she is at terry that week~ her daughter, amanda, who was 4 at the time of the muders, & now is an adult, comes to our non board & supports her father terry & his innocence~ she says the abuse allegations against him are BS, that he never abused her, punished yes, abused nope~
also here is what stevie's bio dad has to say on the case:
Steve Branch breaks his silence
He's upset with recent publicity in the West Memphis Three Case
Branch remains convinced the right people are behind bars
tompowell3 on Twitter
(West Memphis, AR) -- Steve Branch says he's not one to chase down cameras. "I didn't want to come out here and do this," he told us during an interview Friday. "I didn't see any other choice."
Branch has remained relatively quiet since the end of the trials for the West Memphis Three: Damien Echols, Jessie Misskelley and Jason Baldwin.
He felt compelled to speak out now because of recent publicity in the case. "I'm here for the three eight-year-old boys that were tortured and murdered, one of which was my son, Little Steve," he said.
Branch was convinced after the trials, and remains convinced today, that the right people are behind bars for the murders of Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers and Michael Moore.
Part of his message Friday was meant specifically for the West Memphis Three. "Instead of begging them to let you out, you should be begging them to let you stay in there, because you don't want to come back out here," Branch said.
Branch was upset when he saw parts of a recent interview Johnny Depp did for an upcoming episode of 48 Hours Mystery . "To Johnny Depp, Winona Ryder and the rest of you celebrities trying to get in the spotlight by standing on my son's shoulders, stop it. You should be ashamed of yourselves," Branch said.
Branch is also disappointed with family members of the victims who are now supporting the West Memphis Three. "I say to the parents who are supporting their sons' killers, to quote another son to his parent, 'Why has thou forsaken me?"
& todd moore, michaels father:
Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#18 hrs ago
Well said Steve, these people, and yes even some of the parents such as Pam Hobbs and Mark Byers, should be ashamed of themselves. Unlike them, you and I did not sell out our sons for a book or movie deal. We are not trying to make a dollar off of the memories of our children who died at the hands of monsters such as Echols, Misskelly and Baldwin.
There are many good people who know just as we do that justice has been served and the guilty are still behind bars and will continue despite the actions of those such as Depp.
Time after time the courts have upheld these convictions as they should have, we were there every minute of every day at the trials. We also know how HBO lied to all of us and made that sham of a documentary.
Those who support these murderers are zealots and are almost cult like themselves. They are pushing this lie out to the millions who watch this news and other news outlets that do not seem to really care about the truth but more into what sensationalism they can show to sell their program. The truth and Justice are on our side and we will prevail.
this was all posted AFTER the 48 hours biased show aired~
i also want to add, regardless of what side of the fence you are on regarding this case~ it made me literally ill, that the TRUE VICTIMS in all of this, were merely added as an after thought on 48 hours~ no matter if you are a supporter or non, you have to admit, first & foremost that michael, stevie & christopher are what this case is all about~ not that damien was a smartass, dressed in black & lorri has moons in her eyes when it comes to him~ they presented nothing in regards to the innocence of the WM3~ the hair thing has been so played~ 48 hours should be ashamed of themselves for presenting such rubbish~
Last edited by GODDESS6; 03-02-2010 at 02:50 PM.
Thanks for the info Goddess, as I said I was not very familiar with the case. Will have to read up on it.
i think the parents have done a wonderful job of keeping them under wraps~ they're just so sad to see what was done to these boys~
i have to say tho, those shots are what got me interested in the case~ being a death hag i have seen lotsa death type photos & stuff, but i was floored that these films would show michael, stevie & christopher actually dead & not just in photographs~ i was floored beyond belief, then i started reading & studying the case & have since become friends w/ a few parents of the victims that post on the non board & yes i have even spoken w/ john mark byers a few times, before & after his change of heart, or should i say wallet?~
also a very nice girl on our non board lives in memphis & has been able to, time & time again drive over to west memphis & get us photographs & info~ she was able to visit the evidence room & all of the stuff about the case, she was able to photograph alot of it for us, when it all became available to the public~
Last edited by GODDESS6; 03-02-2010 at 02:19 PM.
And I agree with you on the subject of the boys being forgotten. It's not about them anymore. It hasn't been for a very long time.
sometimes i wonder too, do the supporters of the WM3 remember how happy damien was that they were calling him 'the west memphis boogeyman'? & how much it got him off that little kids were going to be scared & looking under their beds thinking he was coming for them too?, if you were innocent would you say that?, even in jest?, it's not funny & i don't see how anyone can take that lightly~
if you were innocent would you sit there on 48 hours so complacent, as damien did?, or would you be hoarse, because from day 1 of your arrest & conviction you would be screaming "I'M INNOCENT'?~ not blowing kisses to the parents in court & licking your lips at the court gallery~ & when you got to hold your son for the first time during the trials as damien did & the press asks you "damien, what is your sons first words going to be?" to which damien replies real creepily "capital murder"?~ does that sound like something an innocent man would say?~
Last edited by GODDESS6; 03-02-2010 at 02:46 PM.
Im watching both movies again to see if my opinion is swayed BUT OMG i do not remember the crime scene last time i watched it those poor litle boys,seeing it made it so much more real.
I really hope they do eventually find who did this,its sickening
& did any of you catch the out & out lies that were on 48 hours?, such as jessie's attorney now being a state's judge, he's not, so why lie about that too?~ it just keeps getting deeper & deeper~
also, did ya'll know that lorri davis, damiens living breathing angel right here on earth was married before & she has a child?~ ok i can see divorcing her first husband, people do it everyday, but why did she abandon her own child to go marry & support a child killer?~ she has nothing to do w/ her own child, to me that is unfathomable~
Last edited by GODDESS6; 03-02-2010 at 03:19 PM.
I dont know much about this case, but the dad claiming Johnny Depp is trying to use his son for publicity is delusional. Johnny Depp doesnt need to find publicity, he is a HUGE celeb. He is not a has been (maybe Winona Rider is, but not Depp) and Im sorry but as an American he does have the right to express his views and concerns.
I find it shocking that some of you can say, yes there was lots of mess ups, and bad police work, but oh well they got the right people. Umm no, police work should be above reproach. And someone who said there wouldve been more murders if they didnt have the right people in prison. Not true. The killers couldve moved to another area, been imprisoned on other charges, or died. Some killers (even serial killers) will stop killing for years, and then pick back up like no time has passed (think BTK, and the Green River Killer)
Just with the few questions posed, there needs to be a new trial. If the WM3 are truly guilty, the evidence and testimony will be the same. If there is a chance even one of them is innocent, we need to retry them all.
If you fail to prepare, you are preparing to fail.
I know of at least one trucking company that has an operating center in West Memphis. They are a nation wide company, with thousands of tractor trailers and tankers travelling all over North America. What if the killer was a trucker?
"If you're gonna be two-faced at least make one of them pretty."
I maintain it had to be someone in that area. I doubt a trucker could have swept through & done that.
I agree with you about police work, but it works both ways. I mean, look at OJ. And Robert Blake. Bungle bungle. Oh!
I also have a very hard time believing that a trucker or drifter could have committed this crime. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I agree with RaRa that the killers had to be from the area.
"If you're gonna be two-faced at least make one of them pretty."
Watched the first hour again last night and I agree they have the correct people. No one person could mange to control three young boys and then kill them,there had to be more and for the other 'killer/s' to have not spoken out before now just shows us.
Jesse was confused merely because he has mental issues,times make no difference to a person with his needs.
They were all in the woods,they were all involved and deserve all they are getting.
Jesse kept his head down throughout the trial not because he was told to but because he was full of guilt and remorse,who could look at any of the parents or view any of the photos without feeling crap.
The step father whos dna they have now found on one of the ropes means nothing,again how could one man control three boys its just not possible.
What about all the clothing fibres from the WM3 that were found on the bodies do people forget those?
Hey guys I tried searching the thread, but I can't seem to find the link with the crime scene pics.
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
Nevermind I found the link, but is the callan site the one of the pics of the bodies?
Last edited by Miho; 03-03-2010 at 08:34 AM.
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
Just watching Part 2 and two questions come to mind
1)were the boys real fathers ever informed or got invloved in the case.I myself have a son with another man we were never together as a couple and hes never seen him but if something like this happend to him I would feel the need to inform him.
2)I know they are not used in court but why were the boys never given a lie detector test,especially now.You should have the right to be able to have one it would at least be a start
That Mark Byers is ALWAYS hanging around its like he has to see whats going on,be the first to find out what the cops know AND a bite mark comes up in evidence and low and behold he now has a false set because his were knocked out.
Last edited by discod; 03-03-2010 at 02:53 PM.
Crime scene pics of the children have been taken off the net out of respect for the parents. Other crime scene pics are out, but nothing of the children, cept maybe some injuries.
Heres my thing about accusing Terry Hobbs now. They did this already with a step father. I cant understand after everything Byers went thru with the accusations, he is now doing it to Terry Hobbs. They keep saying that TH hair was in Michael Moores binding..well we dont know whos shoelaces Michael was tied up with. Most likely Stevies.
48 hours sure didnt bring up anything against Damien..like his mental history, his past ramblings of wanting to kill someone and drink their blood. Or that Jessie keeps opening his mouth confessing.
I do not know if the WM3 are guilty. I do not know if they are innocent. What I do know is that there is reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Damian Echols may be a killer, but then, he may not be, and i do not want to see him executed for something that he may be innocent of. You cannot bring an executed person back to life when it's discovered that they were innocent all along. Which has happened too many times already.
I totally agree he is more intelligent than they give him credit for,he doesn't sound retarded in any way he knows whats what.But in saying that Mark Byers freaks me out lol.Anyways three boys CANNOT be controlled by one person.We had Ian Huntley control two young girls here they were in his own home and they knew him,something I think the boys knew...they knew their killers.The Bojangles theory to me is bull one person could not carry out this crime there had to be others involved.