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Thread: Clutter Family Murders

  1. #101
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    That was Alvin Dewey's wife. In her dream, Mrs. Dewey said Bonnie was wringing her hands saying, "To be murdered...there is nothing worse."
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  2. #102
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    Fifty year anniversary of the murders:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33789433...rts/?GT1=43001
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  3. #103
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    RIP Clutter Family
    Cindy Tapia
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessa View Post
    Fifty year anniversary of the murders:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33789433...rts/?GT1=43001
    Hard to believe it's been half a century. After reading this article, I was wondering exactly what 'facts' Capote played with...which were real in the book, which were completely fabricated, which were simply exaggerated? I imagine the fictional elements were centered more on the locals and their lives, rather than the actual murders.
    Regardless, it's an incredible book, one that I cannot put down when I begin reading it. Still chills the blood very effectively, even after all these years...



  5. #105
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    One of the two guys said a quote that always stuck wit me. "There will be blood and hair on the walls tonight." That just chills me.
    Regards,
    Mary

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by leevancleef View Post
    I cant find crime scene photos by now, but this link might be interesting to some of you:

    http://www2.ljworld.com/photos/galle...acy_in_photos/
    I'd never seen these pics. Thanks so much for sharing.
    Cindy Tapia
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    In Loving Memory Brandon Lee

    You can fix anything but a blank page. --Bonnie Hearn Hill

  7. #107
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    Thanks for the death pics.
    Cindy Tapia
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  8. #108
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    I'm reading In Cold Blood in my English class. =D

    I can't believe how selfish people can be for money, it's disgusting. RIP Nancy, Kenyon, Bonnie, and Herbert Clutter. =[

  9. #109
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    Clutter Family murder story on crimelibrary.com http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n...clutter/1.html
    Cindy Tapia
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    In Loving Memory Brandon Lee

    You can fix anything but a blank page. --Bonnie Hearn Hill

  10. #110
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    Here's a self-taught "expert" on the case, who believes that Smith and Hickock may have committed a second, similar family murder just a month later, which has never been officially solved:

    attrib: http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/...ont_207176.txt

    By BETSEY BRUNER
    Up Close
    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    When Jack Ware walked down the half-mile-long dirt and gravel road leading to the former home of wealthy Kansas wheat farmer Herbert W. Clutter on the night of Nov. 15, 1999, he heard the steady and eerie clacking of the barren branches of the Chinese elm trees lining the driveway.

    The Flagstaff resident had traveled to the family's River Valley Farm on the outskirts of Holcomb, near the county seat of Garden City, to honor the 40th anniversary of the murder of Clutter, his wife, Bonnie, and two of their four children still at home, daughter Nancy, 16, and son Kenyon, 15. Ware, who has spent 12 years researching the crime, was haunted by the thought that if he had been on this road the night of Nov. 15, 1959, he might have been able to save the family from brutal murder at the hands of two ex-convicts, Richard "Dick" Hickock and Perry Edward Smith, who had mistakenly thought Mr. Clutter had $10,000 in a home safe.

    "I had this kind of morbid sense of, 'Gosh, if I had been there 40 years before, I could have stopped it,'" Ware recalled. "I could have blown on the killers' car horn. I could have gotten the guy who oversaw the property. The wind was blowing that night in the opposite direction; when the shotgun went off, the wind was carrying the noise away from the caretaker's home."

    A GRIPPING STORY

    In 1971, when Ware first read "In Cold Blood," the acclaimed 1966 book about the crime by American author Truman Capote, he was captivated by the story.

    The novel details the murders of the family who were bound and shot to death in various rooms of their home. Capote interviewed the criminals extensively and published his novel after they were executed for their crimes in April 1965.

    "I knew immediately I would visit Holcomb where it happened," Ware said. "I wanted to see the grave site and the farm. I guess what drove me was I couldn't believe such a God-fearing family had been slain in such a manner. Something about it gripped me and stuck with me for years."

    Capote had also been captivated by the quadruple murder when he read a 335-word article in The New York Times the day after the crime.

    With the help of his childhood friend, writer Harper Lee (who won a Pulitzer Prize for "To Kill a Mockingbird"), he traveled to Holcomb to visit the crime scene and interview residents and investigators.

    He spent six years on the project, compiling 8,000 pages of notes, and first published the story in a four-part serial in The New Yorker.

    Ware's research has also been thorough, and continues as the 50th anniversary of the crime approaches.

    "I feel I probably know as much as anybody outside KBI [Kansas Bureau of Investigation] investigators," Ware said. "I've interviewed all the trial officials, and all the people connected with the crime. I have a pretty good knowledge of it after 12 years."

    SO MANY COINCIDENCES

    When Ware, 61, re-read "In Cold Blood" about 14 years ago, he focused on a second murder, that of the Clifford Walker family in Osprey, Fla., which occurred a month after the Clutter killings.

    The murder of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two young children had been very briefly mentioned in the Capote book, and FBI, Florida and Kansas investigators initially looked into a connection.

    "I went to the library and dug up an Arizona Republic article about the Walker killings," he said. "I got in touch with the sheriff's department down in Florida and began to talk to the detective assigned to the case. That's where my interest mushroomed, with our conversation. There were so many coincidences between the two killings."

    Ware, who grew up in Lake Charles, La., and has lived in Flagstaff since 1992, said that Hickock and Smith were on the run for 45 days and were in southeast Florida, near Osprey close to Sarasota, and checked into a hotel.

    "They checked out the day after they checked in," he said. "That night, the Walker family was killed. They were actually seen in the area before and after the family's murder."

    CAPOTE TOO ATTACHED

    Ware said Capote was a great writer, but didn't follow up the Walker connection.

    "I don't think he did the detective work on the Walker killings," Ware said. "He and Perry were real close. He said Dick and Perry were in the Florida hotel for a week, when the investigators confirmed they were only there for one night. Capote could have gotten them to confess."

    Today, the Walker murder is still an open case. Ware said he is sure Hickock and Smith also killed the Walkers.

    "Since they had already hit one farm, it would make sense they'd say, 'Here's this other farm away from town; let's try our luck here.' I have no doubt they are guilty, as soon as the detectives in Florida run DNA testing on the two relatives of the Clutter killers who are still alive. They already have DNA of the Walker clothing."

    Ware, who has been married for 35 years and has three grown children, is a successful eBay seller today.

    Even though he values collectibles, he said he never sought to have any tangible items from the murder scene.

    "But, I do have some wood taken from the Clutter's barn," he said. "One of these days I do intend to use it to make some picture frames. I'm sure by now that barn has been torn down. The two-story house is still there; it was mostly a very sound house."

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by STsFirstmate View Post
    One of the two guys said a quote that always stuck wit me. "There will be blood and hair on the walls tonight." That just chills me.
    Regards,
    Mary
    Makes me think of a quote from the book that made me laugh in an uncomfortable way. After Hickcock and Smith are arrested, we are getting reactions back in Holcomb about the prospect of their return to Finney County. One of the people says something to the effect of "I don't like the idea of them coming back here. It makes me scared." And the response? The person says, "I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Right now, they are probably more scared of us then we are of them." Was it ACTUALLY said? I don't know, but I sure think it's kind of funny........

  12. #112
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    I also recall seeing the death photos, but can't recall where I saw them. The original movie of In Cold Blood scared the crap out of me. I re watched it not to long ago and it still gave me chills. I think Robert Blake's best proformance. The newer version I didn't think it was that good, well let's say it didn't give me chills. I've read the book several times. I do think Truman had a thing for Perry, they seemed just a little to close for me.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnie View Post
    Here's a self-taught "expert" on the case, who believes that Smith and Hickock may have committed a second, similar family murder just a month later, which has never been officially solved:

    attrib: http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/...ont_207176.txt
    This is absolutely fascinating. Wouldn't it be amazing if they were able to solve this second set of murders by linking Smith & Hickock to those crimes also? It certainly would bear out the decision to execute the two men, as obviously they had no intention of putting an end to their rampage.



  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnie View Post
    Here's a self-taught "expert" on the case, who believes that Smith and Hickock may have committed a second, similar family murder just a month later, which has never been officially solved:

    attrib: http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/...ont_207176.txt

    By BETSEY BRUNER
    Up Close
    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    When Jack Ware walked down the half-mile-long dirt and gravel road leading to the former home of wealthy Kansas wheat farmer Herbert W. Clutter on the night of Nov. 15, 1999, he heard the steady and eerie clacking of the barren branches of the Chinese elm trees lining the driveway.

    The Flagstaff resident had traveled to the family's River Valley Farm on the outskirts of Holcomb, near the county seat of Garden City, to honor the 40th anniversary of the murder of Clutter, his wife, Bonnie, and two of their four children still at home, daughter Nancy, 16, and son Kenyon, 15. Ware, who has spent 12 years researching the crime, was haunted by the thought that if he had been on this road the night of Nov. 15, 1959, he might have been able to save the family from brutal murder at the hands of two ex-convicts, Richard "Dick" Hickock and Perry Edward Smith, who had mistakenly thought Mr. Clutter had $10,000 in a home safe.

    "I had this kind of morbid sense of, 'Gosh, if I had been there 40 years before, I could have stopped it,'" Ware recalled. "I could have blown on the killers' car horn. I could have gotten the guy who oversaw the property. The wind was blowing that night in the opposite direction; when the shotgun went off, the wind was carrying the noise away from the caretaker's home."

    A GRIPPING STORY

    In 1971, when Ware first read "In Cold Blood," the acclaimed 1966 book about the crime by American author Truman Capote, he was captivated by the story.

    The novel details the murders of the family who were bound and shot to death in various rooms of their home. Capote interviewed the criminals extensively and published his novel after they were executed for their crimes in April 1965.

    "I knew immediately I would visit Holcomb where it happened," Ware said. "I wanted to see the grave site and the farm. I guess what drove me was I couldn't believe such a God-fearing family had been slain in such a manner. Something about it gripped me and stuck with me for years."

    Capote had also been captivated by the quadruple murder when he read a 335-word article in The New York Times the day after the crime.

    With the help of his childhood friend, writer Harper Lee (who won a Pulitzer Prize for "To Kill a Mockingbird"), he traveled to Holcomb to visit the crime scene and interview residents and investigators.

    He spent six years on the project, compiling 8,000 pages of notes, and first published the story in a four-part serial in The New Yorker.

    Ware's research has also been thorough, and continues as the 50th anniversary of the crime approaches.

    "I feel I probably know as much as anybody outside KBI [Kansas Bureau of Investigation] investigators," Ware said. "I've interviewed all the trial officials, and all the people connected with the crime. I have a pretty good knowledge of it after 12 years."

    SO MANY COINCIDENCES

    When Ware, 61, re-read "In Cold Blood" about 14 years ago, he focused on a second murder, that of the Clifford Walker family in Osprey, Fla., which occurred a month after the Clutter killings.

    The murder of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two young children had been very briefly mentioned in the Capote book, and FBI, Florida and Kansas investigators initially looked into a connection.

    "I went to the library and dug up an Arizona Republic article about the Walker killings," he said. "I got in touch with the sheriff's department down in Florida and began to talk to the detective assigned to the case. That's where my interest mushroomed, with our conversation. There were so many coincidences between the two killings."

    Ware, who grew up in Lake Charles, La., and has lived in Flagstaff since 1992, said that Hickock and Smith were on the run for 45 days and were in southeast Florida, near Osprey close to Sarasota, and checked into a hotel.

    "They checked out the day after they checked in," he said. "That night, the Walker family was killed. They were actually seen in the area before and after the family's murder."

    CAPOTE TOO ATTACHED

    Ware said Capote was a great writer, but didn't follow up the Walker connection.

    "I don't think he did the detective work on the Walker killings," Ware said. "He and Perry were real close. He said Dick and Perry were in the Florida hotel for a week, when the investigators confirmed they were only there for one night. Capote could have gotten them to confess."

    Today, the Walker murder is still an open case. Ware said he is sure Hickock and Smith also killed the Walkers.

    "Since they had already hit one farm, it would make sense they'd say, 'Here's this other farm away from town; let's try our luck here.' I have no doubt they are guilty, as soon as the detectives in Florida run DNA testing on the two relatives of the Clutter killers who are still alive. They already have DNA of the Walker clothing."

    Ware, who has been married for 35 years and has three grown children, is a successful eBay seller today.

    Even though he values collectibles, he said he never sought to have any tangible items from the murder scene.

    "But, I do have some wood taken from the Clutter's barn," he said. "One of these days I do intend to use it to make some picture frames. I'm sure by now that barn has been torn down. The two-story house is still there; it was mostly a very sound house."
    Great post! Thanks for sharing. And it does make sense they would do this again. What are the odds of them being seen in the area at the time of the murders and it not being them?
    Cindy Tapia
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  15. #115
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    I have always had the impression that Truman was in love with himself, and would do or say anything to keep himself the center of attention.
    Life is a banquet....and most poor suckers are starving to death

  16. #116
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    No doubt, it served Truman's personal AND literary purposes to believe, and sell the concept, that Perry and Dick only committed that one set of murders, almost unintentionally, rather than ruin any sympathy for them (especially Perry) by getting them to confess to deliberately doing it again.

  17. #117
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    The thing is, Truman Capote was not a detective. If Perry and Hickock committed the second murders, the police dropped the ball on that. Not Capote.

  18. #118
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    I had never heard of this case until now...now I shall spend my Sunday afternoon reading about it. 50 year anniversary TODAY!

  19. #119
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    It's chilling to read about Nancy Clutter getting ready for bed, setting out the red velvet dress she made to wear to church while the killers were either watching the property or were on their way to the farm.. She was buried in the dress.
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  20. #120
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    I just re read the Clutter murdes on crimelibrary.com. It stated that these two monsters, as they were rolling down the highway, actually joked about what they had done. "The Clutter house is cluttered with Clutters." Sick bastards.
    Cindy Tapia
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  21. #121
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    I just read this thread for the first time and I think this link wasn't posted. Some pictures about the case. And warning, some pics of the bodies too.

    http://www.gcpolice.org/History/Clut...r_Clutters.htm
    Last edited by Northern Lights; 11-16-2009 at 04:32 PM.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    I just read this thread for the first time and I think this link wasn't posted. Some pictures about the case. And warning, some pics of the bodies too.

    http://www.gcpolice.org/History/Clut...r_Clutters.htm
    The row of coffins is almost as worse as the crime scene photos. Thanks for sharing!
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    The row of coffins is almost as worse as the crime scene photos. Thanks for sharing!
    You're welcome!

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    You're welcome!
    I've never seen those crime scene pics. Great find, Northern Lights! The ones on the A&E network episode showed a great deal of blood sprayed on the wall in Nancy's room, but the wall looked very clean in these pics. Very strange! Supposedly the teddy bear in Nancy's room was covered in blood and had to be burned along with the bedding.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    I've never seen those crime scene pics. Great find, Northern Lights! The ones on the A&E network episode showed a great deal of blood sprayed on the wall in Nancy's room, but the wall looked very clean in these pics. Very strange! Supposedly the teddy bear in Nancy's room was covered in blood and had to be burned along with the bedding.
    Thanks! That is strange. Is it possible that those pics were taken from the different angle or something?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    Thanks! That is strange. Is it possible that those pics were taken from the different angle or something?
    I don't know, it's possible. The pic I saw for about a nanosecond on A&E showed this HUGE spray of blood all over the wall. Keep in mind that the barrel of the shotgun was practically touching the back of Nancy's head.
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  27. #127
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    I too was surprised at the lack of blood in those pics. I remember in the book talking about the duct tape blowing off of Nancy mouth after she was shot. Doesn't seem like a lot of blood for such an injury. Actually most of those pics show a pretty clean room.. strange...


    "I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miho View Post
    I too was surprised at the lack of blood in those pics. I remember in the book talking about the duct tape blowing off of Nancy mouth after she was shot. Doesn't seem like a lot of blood for such an injury. Actually most of those pics show a pretty clean room.. strange...
    And what is even stranger, that is Garden City Police Departments site and those pics are supposed to be original crime scene pics. I'm a little confused too...

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    I've never seen those crime scene pics. Great find, Northern Lights! The ones on the A&E network episode showed a great deal of blood sprayed on the wall in Nancy's room, but the wall looked very clean in these pics. Very strange! Supposedly the teddy bear in Nancy's room was covered in blood and had to be burned along with the bedding.
    Something's up with those photos, you're right. They seem to have 'cleaned up' the surrounding walls, they don't look anything like the photos I've seen before.



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    It looks like they may have been doctored to edit out some of the gore, maybe that is why they are so cloudy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Vi View Post
    It looks like they may have been doctored to edit out some of the gore, maybe that is why they are so cloudy

    Good call!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Vi View Post
    It looks like they may have been doctored to edit out some of the gore, maybe that is why they are so cloudy
    I think you are right. When you look at that first picture of Nancy, it looks like there is maybe blood on the ceiling. But not anywhere else

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Vi View Post
    It looks like they may have been doctored to edit out some of the gore, maybe that is why they are so cloudy
    I agree. I know from my own experience that doctoring on photoshop will make some images cloudy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    Something's up with those photos, you're right. They seem to have 'cleaned up' the surrounding walls, they don't look anything like the photos I've seen before.
    Also, the first crime scene picture labeled as being of Nancy, isn't Nancy. Or am I crazy? It looks like a bare legged woman on her back, when Nancy was on her side in pajama pants. Maybe it's a picture of Bonnie?

  35. #135
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    This had the caption of one of the rooms after it had been cleaned.
    Does anyone else think the lips on the wall are odd? I wonder if it was
    taken through glass and we are seeing a reflection?

    Last edited by Frazzzld Kat; 11-17-2009 at 08:07 PM.

  36. #136
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    Taking into account for the hair, makeup, and eyeglasses of the times, the Clutter's were an attractive family. Such a loss....

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    The lips are odd. I have never seen that before.
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  38. #138
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    A little further down from the lips you can make out what looks almost like a lace collar. That's why I was wondering if it could be a reflection? Because having lips on the wall as art would be too weird, especially back in those days. LOL

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lout_Rampage View Post
    Also, the first crime scene picture labeled as being of Nancy, isn't Nancy. Or am I crazy? It looks like a bare legged woman on her back, when Nancy was on her side in pajama pants. Maybe it's a picture of Bonnie?
    I thought the same thing. There are two of Herb Clutter, one after being 'rolled over.' So maybe they did the same with Nancy? I don't know, these photos are so cloudy and seemingly overexposed it's hard to tell anything, really.



  40. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by leevancleef View Post
    I cant find crime scene photos by now, but this link might be interesting to some of you:

    http://www2.ljworld.com/photos/galle...acy_in_photos/
    THAT is fabulous. Thanks so much for finding and posting. This case is one that I've always been interested in, and I'd never seen those photos before.

  41. #141
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    I got In Cold Blood from Amazon just to read about the Clutters. How awful, a home invasion where victims were systematically murdered, like the Tate/LaBiancas.
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    i'll bump my question....

    does any one have any info on floyd welles or wells?

    he was dicks cellmate who told him of the safe,which may have been in the old house.

    i asked about this on imdb,i got one response,that he was killed in a shoot out with police during a robbery in kansas city.

    i pm'ed the poster,and never heard back from him,or find any more about floyd.
    Last edited by midnitelamp; 11-30-2009 at 12:19 PM.
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    Here's a couple of good sites about the Walker murders:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33764

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/section/SPECIAL12

    The Smith/Hickok connection was apparently dismissed early on despite some similarities to the Clutter Case. For starters, the Walkers were POOR. Clifford Walker, aged 24,, was just a ranch hand living with his family in a small frame house. His pretty wife Christine, a former drum majorette, was a mere 22. The children, Jimmy and Debbie, were 4 and 2, respectively.

    The incident does not appear to have been occasioned by a robbery (the reason for the Clutters' killings), though a couple of significant items were stolen and have never been recovered. The motive was sexual--- Christine was raped, probably by someone she knew, and her husband and son were quickly killed as they entered the house and witnessed the scene.

    Christine was beaten and raped in her bedroom, but dragged toward the parlor and shot. Her husband (killed so quickly he was still wearing his cowboy hat) and small son (who was shot numerous times before he died) lay in the area of the doorway, near the family Christmas tree. It was the way Debbie died that was the most heart-rending; after being shot once, it was theorized that the killer had run out of bullets, so he drowned the curly-haired toddler in the bathtub.

    There were numerous suspects, including the neighbor who had found the bodies, a love-struck cousin of Clifford's who was obsessed with Christine, and another known, convicted killer who gave a detailed description of the crime scene. However, the convicted killer was found to have memorized some of the extensive newspaper reports (indeed, the reporters were allowed on the scene immediately, and contaminated it.)
    In 2005, DNA evidence cleared, among other suspects, the neighbor and the disappointed cousin, though the stolen items--- Christine's majorette uniform and the couple's marriage license--- have never been found. The case is STILL unsolved.

  44. #144
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    thanx for the linx,Linnie.
    Knowlege Comes With Deaths release

    Heaven's on the pillow,it's Silence competes with Hell

    "If you don't go to other peoples' funerals,they won't come to yours."-Yogi Berra

  45. #145
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    Great link Linnie! The third newspaper pdf article has crime scene pics if anyone is interested.


    "I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."

  46. #146
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    Here is a short memoir (but too long to post in entirety) by Herb Clutter's niece Diana Selsor Edwards, of her last visit to her cousins, the funeral, and the surviving sister Beverley's wedding.
    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/1566961.html

  47. #147
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    One of the things that makes the original movie of "In Cold Blood" so compelling is that the actors selected bore uncanny resemblance to the real life "cast"!! It was eerie to saay the least!!

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnie View Post
    Here is a short memoir (but too long to post in entirety) by Herb Clutter's niece Diana Selsor Edwards, of her last visit to her cousins, the funeral, and the surviving sister Beverley's wedding.
    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/1566961.html
    That was a good find, Linnie. I couldn't even imagine the horror the writer felt when she saw that tiny scrap of Nancy's flesh and dried blood on the wall of Nancy's former bedroom.
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  49. #149
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    I think the photo of Kenyon is the saddest.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    If this has already been addressed, forgive me. I'm a lazy bitch and didn't take the time to look. In November, 1959, Herbert Clutter, his wife Bonnie, son Kenyon and daughter Nancy were killed by two intruders who entered the home via an unlocked door.
    The story was documented in Truman Capote's In Cold Blood. I'm wondering if other death hags have seen the crime scene pics somewhere online and if any further resources are available.
    Hello

    Well, its almost 4yrs later since this post that I'm responding to has been posted. However, there is a website I believe its called LJWorld or something like that. It's the local newspaper website for Garden City Kansas. The last I saw of it was in 2003 when Harold Nye(one of the KBI agents that was featured on the A&E program "The Real Story") passed away. I take that back..., it was 2005. They made there own documentary of this story that can be viewed online with highspeed internet and exclusively on the LJWorld website.

    There is also info of it on youtube too where some of the crime photo's are shown..., not fully but you do realize what you see when you see it.

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