Luby's Massacre

[ichabodius]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


DateWednesday, October 16, 1991Attack typemass murder, murder-suicide, massacreWeapon(s)Glock 17, Ruger P89Deaths24 (including the perpetrator)Injured20Perpetrator(s)George HennardLuby's massacre was a mass killing that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Jo Hennard drove his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot and killed 23 people, wounded another 20 and then committed suicide by shooting himself. It remained the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the Virginia Tech Massacre



[edit] Killings

On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me!", then opened fire on the restaurant's patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89. About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide. During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms. According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill[1] and in general [2][3], after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person[4].) One patron, Tommy Vaughn, threw himself through a plate-glass window to allow others to escape.[5] Hennard allowed a mother and her four-year-old child to leave. He reloaded several times and still had ammunition remaining when he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head after being cornered and wounded by police.[6][7][8]

[edit] Consequences

Reacting to the massacre,[9] in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law allowing Texas citizens with the required permit to carry concealed weapons. The law was sponsored by State Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was present at the Luby's massacre and both of whose parents were shot and killed. The 1995 Texas law, signed by then-Governor George W. Bush, became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.[10]
This Killeen Luby's was later reopened after cleanup, but it was later closed for good on September 9, 2000. It has not been positively determined whether the Killeen location's closing was due in part to the stigma surrounding it after the incident, or simply the result of the overall financial problems of the Luby's chain. Now a Chinese buffet Yank Sing has taken residence in the Luby's building.

[edit] Comparisons

The Luby's massacre remained the deadliest criminal mass shooting by a single gunman in United States history until April 16, 2007, when the Virginia Tech massacre occurred.

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[Maruz83]

I saw this on some show.... he blew his head off. I think he also left a video about why he was killing himself.... Krazy !!

[cleanskull]

Thats why I carry. I will return fire and I am a damn good shot.

[magblax]

Glock 9mm = $571.00

[NOVSTORM]

I always carry. I am not allowed to have a gun at all in SF. But I do anyway. I like to travel a lot and usually have my G kids with me . I am a damn good shit too. I have no intention of being anyones victim.
How horse shit is this? 23 people dead because some morons decided that you cannot carry a weapon tp protect yourself.

[ichabodius]

I always carry. I am not allowed to have a gun at all in SF. But I do anyway. I like to travel a lot and usually have my G kids with me . I am a damn good shit too. I have no intention of being anyones victim.
How horse shit is this? 23 people dead because some morons decided that you cannot carry a weapon tp protect yourself.

Totally with you on that one. Ive been in a few predicaments where I wish I was packing. Luckily I came out only slightly bruised and bloody. I just wish everybody had a healthy respect for the dangers of guns and a healthy respect for the sanctity of human life!

[GrinReaper]

But for those who get a permit and carry how do we know that your not gonna flip out and start shooting up the place?
"I DID NOT WANT CHEESE ON MY BURGER!!" BAM BAM BAM!

Ya can't trust anybody.

[ichabodius]

Anyone could flip at anytime. Apart from mental illness, I think ones reaction to an event pretty much depends on cultural conditioning. Unfortunately America is becoming an increasingly violent society where overeacting is the norm.

[Cathy J.]

Wasnt there a gay angle to this shooting?

I seem to recall hearing in the news at the time of this , the statement he made "look what Bell County did to me" was directed to the women of the county. He hated women I remember hearing even though women weren't the only ones he killed.

From what I remember from the news, Hennard was a gay man who hated himself for being gay and since he could not get aroused by women took out his anger by doing this shooting. One of the news reports at the time also reported that a woman made fun of Hennard not long before this shooting because he, well couldn't get it up and that could be a possible reason why he went over the edge.

[mac_lorre]

But for those who get a permit and carry how do we know that your not gonna flip out and start shooting up the place?
"I DID NOT WANT CHEESE ON MY BURGER!!" BAM BAM BAM!

Ya can't trust anybody.

You ever actually hear about something like that happening? It's been 12 years since Texas passed their shall issue law. I believe it's been 20 years since Florida passed theirs. Concealed carry was never outlawed in Vermont, you don't even need a permit. I think we'd have heard the stories by now if they happened.

Do you worry about cops going nuts and opening fire on people? Do you worry about some crazy driving their car into a crowd of people in a fit of rage?

People that go through the process of getting a permit to carry are typically the ones you least have to worry about.

[Katie]

I attend church with the spouses of about 15 of those people. It happened to be Secretaries Day, so that is why it was so crowded.

For awhile Luby's stayed closed, and then the National company came in and remodeled it, but it did not change the horror of what the towns people went through. It closed, and is now a Chinese place.

Both my husband and I are licensed to carry. I am also a damn good shot. The one I have here at the house is even bigger, and I am not that great yet. What I would do is point for the balls, and kill what I could between them and the head.

For the record. I was very uncomfortable with the statement about him might being gay. It makes it seem like this is what Gay people do.

He was a very troubled man, who had lots of experience with drugs and alcohol, which lead to trouble with the law.

Also for the record, I don't think his ex- thought he was so gay.

[Cathy J.]

For the record. I was very uncomfortable with the statement about him might being gay. It makes it seem like this is what Gay people do.

Also for the record, I don't think his ex- thought he was so gay.

The gay angle to this shooting was reported in the press just after it happened. CBS I believe was one who did brought it up and of course..the National Enquier. But quickly the press stopped reporting this "story" or "rumor" was a better word here. Rather quickly it went away. I would imagine one of two things happened. Either ( A ) they found out it was not true or (B) the press started this angle themselves, hoping to find something but instead found nothing.

[RaRaRamona]

But for those who get a permit and carry how do we know that your not gonna flip out and start shooting up the place?
"I DID NOT WANT CHEESE ON MY BURGER!!" BAM BAM BAM!

Ya can't trust anybody.

Probably not if he thought the grandma behind him would pop him one. Plus if that did happen, I almost guarantee someone with a permit could outdraw him.

[RaRaRamona]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


DateWednesday, October 16, 1991Attack typemass murder, murder-suicide, massacreWeapon(s)Glock 17, Ruger P89Deaths24 (including the perpetrator)Injured20Perpetrator(s)George HennardLuby's massacre was a mass killing that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Jo Hennard drove his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot and killed 23 people, wounded another 20 and then committed suicide by shooting himself. It remained the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the Virginia Tech Massacre



[edit] Killings

On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me!", then opened fire on the restaurant's patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89. About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide. During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms. According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill[1] and in general [2][3], after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person[4].) One patron, Tommy Vaughn, threw himself through a plate-glass window to allow others to escape.[5] Hennard allowed a mother and her four-year-old child to leave. He reloaded several times and still had ammunition remaining when he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head after being cornered and wounded by police.[6][7][8]

[edit] Consequences

Reacting to the massacre,[9] in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law allowing Texas citizens with the required permit to carry concealed weapons. The law was sponsored by State Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was present at the Luby's massacre and both of whose parents were shot and killed. The 1995 Texas law, signed by then-Governor George W. Bush, became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.[10]
This Killeen Luby's was later reopened after cleanup, but it was later closed for good on September 9, 2000. It has not been positively determined whether the Killeen location's closing was due in part to the stigma surrounding it after the incident, or simply the result of the overall financial problems of the Luby's chain. Now a Chinese buffet Yank Sing has taken residence in the Luby's building.

[edit] Comparisons

The Luby's massacre remained the deadliest criminal mass shooting by a single gunman in United States history until April 16, 2007, when the Virginia Tech massacre occurred.

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Did he only let one child go? Small favors...

[Lisamarie]

We lived in Texas when that happened also when Waco went down...I remeber my Dad driving us pass the Lubys and there was big board over the window he dove through. Thats guys who plunged through the glass was a hero!!

[Hidium]

I remember when that happened. When I do work, at a 'real' job, I work as a secretary. My last boss rarely let me go to lunch in the building cafeteria, and never took me out on to lunch on Secretary's day... which was fine with me because I didn't want to sit across from her and attempt to make conversation with that awful woman while gagging down my food. She gave me flowers from the Ralph's Supermarket instead. I would have rather had the $8.99 she put out on them instead, but you take what you can get when you're in the slavery industry. The whole Luby's story would have made more sense if it had been a disgruntled secretary, disgusted at being taken to a buffet style lunch by a boss who could have shown more appreciation. I'm not bitter. Really I'm not. They have security where I used to work. And metal detectors, I've checked.

[SuburbanDeathHag]

If an armed citizen had shot this sicko dead, which would have been a very heroic act, the media would not have given this story much coverage.

[RaRaRamona]

If an armed citizen had shot this sicko dead, which would have been a very heroic act, the media would not have given this story much coverage.

Nope, b/c there would not have been a mass murder - probably only one or two injured.

[Hidium]

Nope, b/c there would not have been a mass murder - probably only one or two injured.

If someone was about to kill a lot of innocents, and I had the power to stop him, I would be honored to do so. If he decided to die from the injuries I inflicted on him using my 'stopping power', that would be up to him. I wouldn't mind using the "Hello Kitty" gun that Ichabodius found and put on another thread. I'm a good shot, and I would go for a no reflex kill.

[RaRaRamona]

If someone was about to kill a lot of innocents, and I had the power to stop him, I would be honored to do so. If he decided to die from the injuries I inflicted on him using my 'stopping power', that would be up to him. I wouldn't mind using the "Hello Kitty" gun that Ichabodius found and put on another thread. I'm a good shot, and I would go for a no reflex kill.

Haha - we've finally found a valid use for the Hello Kitty gun. I did forget to count the shooter's death in my body count. So make that one dead, one or two injured.

[cherryghost]

Wow Im glad in Australia we dont have the scale of guns and Massacres you are dealing with! Banning guns does actually cut down on the murders! Otherwise everyone has a gun and can kill in a moment! Kind of like the last scene in "Reservoir Dogs"

[Jack-O-Lantern]

I always carry. I am not allowed to have a gun at all in SF. But I do anyway. I like to travel a lot and usually have my G kids with me . I am a damn good shit too. I have no intention of being anyones victim.
How horse shit is this? 23 people dead because some morons decided that you cannot carry a weapon tp protect yourself.

Actually NOV that stupid law was overturned by the Cal State Court of Appeals...it is now once again perfectly legal to purchase and own a gun in S.F.
Thank God someone's still got half a brain in this city and is not influenced by the governing herd mentality (i.e., the morons, I mean, the Board of Stupidvisors)...

[cherryghost]

Yeah brillant to allow everyone and his idiot to have a gun! Thats great news!I break the law I have a gun, and Im a great shoot too! Ohh I have no intention of killing anyone..... or or being anyones victim!

Its a war zone in your own country!

Fuck if you have guns you'll kill, Dont thank God, he has nothing to do with it! honestly!

Just try and get rid of the guns, use it as a social experiment USA, see what happens, its a big ask and will take yrs to implement but hey and the social experiment may make your statements and justifactions seem as stupid as they do to us!
No one has the right to carry!

Apologis's If I offend but my opinion is meant to be constructive not aggressive! More guns means more easy killers and if we are all armed just see Resoviour Dogs, we can all just kill ourselves and die! Get rid of the guns you guys its a no brainer

Or just try a total ban on guns, get rid of the guns, Ban guns you guys!

[RaRaRamona]

Yeah brillant to allow everyone and his idiot to have a gun! Thats great news!I break the law I have a gun, and Im a great shoot too! Ohh I have no intention of killing anyone..... or or being anyones victim!

Its a war zone in your own country!

Fuck if you have guns you'll kill, Dont thank God, he has nothing to do with it! honestly!

Just try and get rid of the guns, use it as a social experiment USA, see what happens, its a big ask and will take yrs to implement but hey and the social experiment may make your statements and justifactions seem as stupid as they do to us!
No one has the right to carry!

Apologis's If I offend but my opinion is meant to be constructive not aggressive! More guns means more easy killers and if we are all armed just see Resoviour Dogs, we can all just kill ourselves and die! Get rid of the guns you guys its a no brainer

Or just try a total ban on guns, get rid of the guns, Ban guns you guys!

Did you just recently see that movie or something? If we ban guns they'll use knives if we ban knives they'll use ice picks if we ban ice picks they'll use something else. That doesn't matter. What I think does matter is raising kids to respect themselves & others. No one does that in the country anymore.

[Katie]

Cherry,

I wish it was that easy. Guns were everywhere, before you and I were even born. Take away the guns of those who are legally able to handle them, and you leave people that are lawless to do what they want.

You cannot just go out and buy a gun these days. There are things you must do, and to carry it, , you have to take classes and pass the test. When we do this, we know when to pull it and when not to.

The rep. who started this bill, sat and watched her parents be murdered with a lot of other people, and they only thing they had to defend themselves with was a prayer, and a fork, and a butter knife.

If she had her gun, she could have taken one shot, and so many people would have been saved.

If at Columbine, a teacher had a weapon, it could have saved so many babies lives.

If I am in my home, and a man breaks the door down, and intends to rape, or worse harm my kids, am I to just say, damn, not my lucky day?

I love law enforcement, they are my heroes, but it is time people realize that they can not do everything alone. We must start helping our selves.

I don't like it, and you don't like it, but facts are facts. We now live in a world where drugs are the mass market, and a druggie who needs a fix is not thinking about the nice way to go about it. We also live in a me generation where young people are learning that if you don't have it, you take it.

We also have much smarter bad guys. They now know not to leave witnesses.

[Jack-O-Lantern]

It's very typical for people to blame guns for the violence in this country, rather than blaming the person wielding the gun.
Banning the private ownership of handguns would do one thing, and one thing only--leave us without protection from criminals who have, in most cases, obtained their guns illegally anyway. That wouldn't stop--violent criminals would continue to obtain their firepower via illegal means--and we, lucky us, would be virtually defenseless against them.
Appreciate your opinion Cherry, and thanks, but no thanks.

[Queen_Death_Hag]

I carry. I don't carry to blow someone's brains out in a moment's notice, it is part of my job. I carry handcuffs too does that make me a bad person?? Ramona, Jack & Katie I agree with you. As someone who knew someone who was in Luby's that day (he survived). I wish someone was carrying that day, maybe some of those innocent folks would still be alive.

[cherryghost]

Did you just recently see that movie or something? If we ban guns they'll use knives if we ban knives they'll use ice picks if we ban ice picks they'll use something else. That doesn't matter. What I think does matter is raising kids to respect themselves & others. No one does that in the country anymore.

No but it is a great example of the stupidity of people having guns.
Of course manners and respect need to be reintroduced and it does start with the kids. Off to watch Kill Bill!

[cherryghost]

It's very typical for people to blame guns for the violence in this country, rather than blaming the person wielding the gun.
Banning the private ownership of handguns would do one thing, and one thing only--leave us without protection from criminals who have, in most cases, obtained their guns illegally anyway. That wouldn't stop--violent criminals would continue to obtain their firepower via illegal means--and we, lucky us, would be virtually defenseless against them.
Appreciate your opinion Cherry, and thanks, but no thanks.

Thanks thats one of the good things about living in Australia, banning guns actually works for us here. Of course someone will always obtain a weapon illegally but it just makes it harder which does help!

I have no solutions for the USA.

[cherryghost]

Your own Micheal Moore said it better than I ever could so I bow out of this discourse, Im Not living in the US but a country where guns are banned and it does work well!

"Killing for Columbine" sums up my opinions and he has the statistics to back it all up! Its stuff we have known in Australia for a very long time!

After the Massacre we had at Port Arthur things were really put in perspective!

(Now I guess Ive really started something Off to watch Gunfight at the OK Coral!

[Katie]

I have not seen that movie. What did he say?

[cherryghost]

Where do I start, Katie its anti guns and anti gun lobby with statistics that blow your mind, I do recommend you see it! Charlton Heston will never be the same!

"Killing for Columbine" Michael Moore, It has a great intro with the Ramones singing 'Wonderful World'

[Katie]

I just googled Michael Moore. Guess what!! he employs a security team, and according to the picture, they are armed. He lives in a gated house, that also has guards.

Darn, Since we use our money for food, I guess we will not be hiring someone to guard our house.

[cherryghost]

I think that is since he made the movies He ruffles a lot of feathers and has had deaththreads, I mean threats lol! Ironic yeah! The gun lobby probably have a hit out on him to start with!

Are guns cheap in the US?

The movies stand on their own!

[RaRaRamona]

Your own Micheal Moore said it better than I ever could so I bow out of this discourse, Im Not living in the US but a country where guns are banned and it does work well!

"Killing for Columbine" sums up my opinions and he has the statistics to back it all up! Its stuff we have known in Australia for a very long time!

After the Massacre we had at Port Arthur things were really put in perspective!

(Now I guess Ive really started something Off to watch Gunfight at the OK Coral!

I do not claim Michael Moore; he is a liar & makes "dramamentaries" that are filled with false information. Did you know he was given an award for the film you referenced (which is "Bowling for Columbine") but it was TAKEN BACK b/c he he's a proven liar. His film was not accurate so could not be considered for a documentary award. Please do not use propaganda when arguing your point.

Also, the film "Reservoir Dogs" is fake. It's not real. Those guys killed each other over stolen jewels. Over here store owners shoot thieves & save themselves all the time.

It's kind of ridiculous to act as if you know better than me, when I live here. I am glad you feel safe. You don't have the issues we do here. You're starting to sound kind of condescending.

[motherogod]

Are guns cheap in the US?

Here in America's bellybutton it is much easier for the kids under 21 to get a gun than alcohol. Seriously. Of course they get the alcohol, too. Not sure about cheap, but they are available. I'm all for becoming certified and carrying... of course I haven't and don't. Give me time, though.

I work in the mental health field, and rarely do mental health-related crises (i.e., freaking out and harming others) involve guns. Knives, ropes, shirts, ho-made bombs. deer antlers and even batteries maybe... guns, no. Strange. The guns used in criminal acts are used by sane people using the gun to underline their sense of entitlement as well as their need to feel empowered.

[cherryghost]

I do not claim Michael Moore; he is a liar & makes "dramamentaries" that are filled with false information. Did you know he was given an award for the film you referenced (which is "Bowling for Columbine") but it was TAKEN BACK b/c he he's a proven liar. His film was not accurate so could not be considered for a documentary award. Please do not use propaganda when arguing your point.

Also, the film "Reservoir Dogs" is fake. It's not real. Those guys killed each other over stolen jewels. Over here store owners shoot thieves & save themselves all the time.

It's kind of ridiculous to act as if you know better than me, when I live here. I am glad you feel safe. You don't have the issues we do here. You're starting to sound kind of condescending.

Ramona This is the second time you have attempted to put words in my mouth I have not written!
No one feels safe in this world Im not that smug!!! Condescending is not my style!

I will use whatever I choose to discuss my point tho thanks!The movie comment was just that a comment! Not fact but a wry observation anyhows for a film.

I dont ACT as if I know better than you, I just expressed how it is for other places who have rigid gun laws gottit! Australia is only one example, people shot each other but not in proportion to the US. That is fact! However we quickly follow the US in trends so one never knows!

Still I think Michael Moore is trying to do something regardless of whether he is a flawed person or not! A lot of people disagree with very strong opinions being presented on things, that doesnt make it propaganda.

Bowling for Columbine, I knew id get it wrong to be corrected is fine by me, is a strong argument against guns for some people. Now Ive wasted enough time on an issue I despise!

[RaRaRamona]

I don't think I put words in your mouth, but to be honest I find it very hard to read your posts. If I misunderstood I apologize.

I do want to point out that misinformation presented as fact is propaganda.

[RoRo]

I know everyone has heard this line before BUT I'm gonna say it anyway...
Guns don't kill people...PEOPLE kill people!!
Alot of my friends carry and own guns and they haven't killed anyone!! There are alot of people in this world, NOT just the US, that are just evil..they are not mentally ill or strung out on drugs...just mean as hell and enjoy hurting others, I say if you need to protect yourself do it!
No, I don't own a gun but that's just because I am a chicken shit and would probably end up shooting my pinkie toe off!!!

[cherryghost]

Sorry you find it hard to read my posts, dont read them if you find them hard!

We disagree on Micheal Moore I dont believe he presented misinformation his points were well backed up! Anyone can discredit facts or opinions by calling out Propaganda.

We disagree so what!

Lets move on!

[cherryghost]

Oh sicko has just been nominated for an academy award for Best Documentary!

[RaRaRamona]

Sorry you find it hard to read my posts, dont read them if you find them hard!

We disagree on Micheal Moore I dont believe he presented misinformation his points were well backed up! Anyone can discredit facts or opinions by calling out Propaganda.

We disagree so what!

Lets move on!

Forgive me for hoping people in other countries don't think this miscreant speaks for us all. I wish you'd read up on him a little.

[Scarsguardianstalkr]

i dont want to ruffle anyones feathers but alot of you guys are going on about if someone had have been carrying that day they could have saved some people and make it easier for people to carry so they can defend themselves but has anyone stop to think how this guy got his gun. im not trying to say dont make it easier cos i honestly dont care because i dont live in usa but this guy got a gun because its a lot easier to get them in the usa even illegally.

just my opinion please dont take offence i understand that banning guns in the usa probably wouldnt work as well as it has here and i know of people that still own guns (that they had before the guns laws were bought in) illegally.

[SomeChick]

i dont want to ruffle anyones feathers...

Everyone here (that includes you!) is welcome...

--------------------------

(I'll be finishing that sentence as a general reply in this thread.)

...and has a right to their opinions as long as those opinions are expressed in a way that respects other's rights, including their opposing viewpoints.

Let's get back to civility please folks. Thanks for your cooperation.

[cherryghost]

Forgive me for hoping people in other countries don't think this miscreant speaks for us all. I wish you'd read up on him a little.

Dont worry we dont, thats why he is so popular overseas.....Its only the far rightwing and the gun lobby who have tried to discredit him I wish you would open your mind up a little!

[cherryghost]

i dont want to ruffle anyones feathers but alot of you guys are going on about if someone had have been carrying that day they could have saved some people and make it easier for people to carry so they can defend themselves but has anyone stop to think how this guy got his gun. im not trying to say dont make it easier cos i honestly dont care because i dont live in usa but this guy got a gun because its a lot easier to get them in the usa even illegally.

just my opinion please dont take offence i understand that banning guns in the usa probably wouldnt work as well as it has here and i know of people that still own guns (that they had before the guns laws were bought in) illegally.

Its a sensitive issue and peoples minds wont be changed, living in Australia I know how well it has worked here Thankgod!

It is hard for people to hear that there may be solutions to the problem .........other than more guns! That is very obvious !

And I should know better than to even have had this discussion. Im shooting through

[shoganc]

My Southern friends: Do not EVER let them legislate away your guns!!! Back when I was a bleeding heart liberal I was disgusted with this notion, however, times change and lessons are learned.

As an aside, there is a movie out called Manufacturing Dissent about Michael Moore that y'all might be interested in checking out. On a more radical note, when asked by Alex Jones (yes, I'm a nut) why Michael Moore would not report the NORAD stand down, Mr. Moore is seen to reply, "That would be un-American". Propaganda comes in many forms.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

[RaRaRamona]

My Southern friends: Do not EVER let them legislate away your guns!!! Back when I was a bleeding heart liberal I was disgusted with this notion, however, times change and lessons are learned.

As an aside, there is a movie out called Manufacturing Dissent about Michael Moore that y'all might be interested in checking out. On a more radical note, when asked by Alex Jones (yes, I'm a nut) why Michael Moore would not report the NORAD stand down, Mr. Moore is seen to reply, "That would be un-American". Propaganda comes in many forms.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

I haven't seen "Manufacturing Dissent" but I have seen interviews with the couple that made it. I am fascinated by the fact that they started out making a docu about how great he was; the more facts they uncovered the more they realized was he was really doing. I wish it was offered in cd then I could listen to it little by little in the car.

[Katie]

Michael is all about the money. Plain and simple. He has taken subjects that would make the most headlines, and has made a fortune off of them.

[shoganc]

Michael is all about the money. Plain and simple. He has taken subjects that would make the most headlines, and has made a fortune off of them.

He is good at what he does though. I cried during "Sicko".