The Columbine Tragedy

[Impatience]

I read the "O" article, and am disappointed with it. Why? Although I think Susan Klebold is being very sincere and honest about her pain, I find her going on and on about how Dylan committed suicide very close-minded of her. That is a lot of what the article is about--that Dylan was in such a state that he committed suicide, and oh, yes, he also killed a number of other children, and she is really sorry about that.

Yes, her son was depressed and suicidal. But he didn't just merely commit suicide--he also killed innocent human beings and that doesn't make him merely a victim of "suicide". He was a *Murderer*. He planned and carried out one of the most horrible things I have ever heard of. That is something Susan in her grief, does not fully address. Are his actions her fault in some way? As parents I am sure we ask ourselves that daily. I have no answer for that. But to gloss over, even remotely, that her son was anything but a killer is something I found highly distasteful.

IMHO.....

i am at home now, so the amount of tv i watch is embarassing. That being said, on one show or another what was being discussed is that she didn't really go on about the murders. It was on the advice of her therapists that she discontinue to write to the families of the victims. Per the therapist, it was opening old wounds. I think she wanted to talk about it from one, certain point of view so that none of the families were hurt by her words. It's been over 10 years, I think that this was what she was comfortable coming out and talking about. Hell, I would have bet Toby on none of the harris' or klebold's ever talking publically, so what do i know?!

[Carrera_3.2]

I guess that we will just say that this was a misinterpretation of what my post read. Let us take a look at the post/question involved. This is my post in its entirety:

"Has anyone on this thread ever posted some different positioned, Hi-Def photos of the pair on the library floor? I will admit that I have not read this entire thread to check but the photos that I did find in the thread were not as clear or as graphic as the ones that I am talking about. If someone that has been following this thread from the beginning, would certainly remember these photos as they are extremely graphic, and if they are posted already, I won't bother to post the ones that I have. Carrera."


"Has anyone on this thread ever posted some different positioned, Hi-Def photos of the pair on the library floor?"

Fairly simple question.

I was asking to check to see if anyone had already posted the "HD" photos in this thread. I also posted this:

"If someone that has been following this thread from the beginning, would certainly remember these photos as they are extremely graphic, and if they are posted already, I won't bother to post the ones that I have. Carrera."

Seems pretty clear of what I had asked.

It appears to me that I was very clear of just what I was asking, and not being "implicative" of what I was asking. I was not asking if anyone has seen the "HD" photos, I was just asking if the "HD" photos had already been posted on the thread, and if they had already been posted, I was not going to bother, to even post the photos that I have had for many years. I really don't see the reason for the ensuing multiple comments

I will just chalk it all up to a misinterpretation of my original post. Take care, Carrera.

[Andrea]

I was also disappointed with the "O" magazine story. I feel for her, but she focused more on the suicide motive than the murderous motive. Maybe that's what helps her get through the day. I doubt the Harris family will ever speak out. I think others knew what was going to happen but thought it would never be carried out. There were strange suicides and murders after that happened.

Andrea

[STORMIE]

I don't know. I kind of felt bad for her after I read her essay in O Magazine:

http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazi...bold-columbine

I guess I always thought that somehow the parents had gone completely wrong with these kids - but now maybe it had nothing to do with their family life. Guess we'll never really know.

[RubySlippers]

I don't know. I kind of felt bad for her after I read her essay in O Magazine:

http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/200911-omag-susan-klebold-columbine

I guess I always thought that somehow the parents had gone completely wrong with these kids - but now maybe it had nothing to do with their family life. Guess we'll never really know.

I have said this from day one. Those parents had no idea what those boys were up to, planning, or even capable of. It was and is unfair to place blame on them.

[Impatience]

i liked the essay. i think she told her story from her point of view.

[Alanwench]

I don't know. I kind of felt bad for her after I read her essay in O Magazine:

http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazi...bold-columbine

I guess I always thought that somehow the parents had gone completely wrong with these kids - but now maybe it had nothing to do with their family life. Guess we'll never really know.

I feel bad for her, too. There was no way Dylan's family could have known his private hell.

[heaven01uk]

I don't know. I kind of felt bad for her after I read her essay in O Magazine:

http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazi...bold-columbine

I guess I always thought that somehow the parents had gone completely wrong with these kids - but now maybe it had nothing to do with their family life. Guess we'll never really know.

Thanks for posting the link.
I feel for her I really do. She must live with every parents worst nightmare doubled.

[alygonforchains]

This story is so sad. How could no one have noticed anything? How did they acquire so many weapons and ammunition and no one saw anything? Such a tragedy. Those boys were definitely crazy!

[Philliefan]

My heart goes out to her and her family. What a horrible thing to have to live with. I don't blame them at all, what those boys did was so totally out of the realm of the everyday world, who would think in their wildest imagination that they would do something like that?

[RubySlippers]

My heart goes out to her and her family. What a horrible thing to have to live with. I don't blame them at all, what those boys did was so totally out of the realm of the everyday world, who would think in their wildest imagination that they would do something like that?

I think something that is lost in this whole god damned thing is that these people lost their babies too. How can you not feel for them? Forget about how their life is because of their children's actions, but think about how their life must be without their boys.

Some may say, "Other families lost loved ones too - BECAUSE of these boys." and with that, I cannot disagree. But for God's sake, step out of the box and look in.

IT is heart wrenching and awful and evil and innocent and PERMANENT.

[Xtine]

I think something that is lost in this whole god damned thing is that these people lost their babies too. How can you not feel for them? Forget about how their life is because of their children's actions, but think about how their life must be without their boys.

Some may say, "Other families lost loved ones too - BECAUSE of these boys." and with that, I cannot disagree. But for God's sake, step out of the box and look in.

IT is heart wrenching and awful and evil and innocent and PERMANENT.

well said, i thought the same thing when i read her essay. the one thing is that i still don't understand how they did not know. like someone said earlier, how did they aquire all the ammo and know one be the wiser.

[Nessa]

This story is so sad. How could no one have noticed anything? How did they acquire so many weapons and ammunition and no one saw anything? Such a tragedy. Those boys were definitely crazy!

Think of how many times teenagers get alcohol or drugs and their parents never know. Guns and ammo are just as easy, if not easier.

Susan's Klebold's essay still left with me some questions, but I feel so terrible for her and the Harrises. You could never learn to deal with something like that.

[Alanwench]

Think of how many times teenagers get alcohol or drugs and their parents never know. Guns and ammo are just as easy, if not easier.

Susan's Klebold's essay still left with me some questions, but I feel so terrible for her and the Harrises. You could never learn to deal with something like that.

I feel even more empathy for the Harrises. They haven't spoken about the tragedy that much, but they must be going through hell, too. Eric's dad called 9-1-1 when he heard about the shooting and mentioned that he thought his son was involved. Knowing or guessing that your kid is into something horrible at the last minute when nothing can be done and being unable to go back to 're-do' things would be torture.

[Alanwench]

well said, i thought the same thing when i read her essay. the one thing is that i still don't understand how they did not know. like someone said earlier, how did they aquire all the ammo and know one be the wiser.

Did Eric store and stockpile all of the ammo?

[Tonights]

I just read Susan's article.

At the time Columbine occurred I was very close in age to the perpetrators and even then I recognized that the parents probably shouldn't be held at fault unless there were some evidences of actual abuse. I knew myself and my friends and I knew our ability to conceal things - I was all messed up at that time (although not violent or suicidal) and nobody knew. I thought that a lot of people who were throwing accusations at the parents had forgotten what it was like to be a teenager. I still think that. It is so easy to hide feelings.

Even as an adult it is easy to conceal my emotional problems if I want to. Why on earth would people not believe that teenagers can do so effectively as well?

After reading this article, I feel really terrible for poor Mrs. Klebold and her husband and their family and just like before, I don't believe the terrible events were their fault in any tangible way. And, it made me afraid to have children, because I hate stories where the parents ostensibly do everything correctly and something just isn't wired right on the inside and there isn't anything you can do about it. It terrifies me.

I understand why people want to place blame on the parents, and on Marilyn Manson, and on whatever else. It's because to place blame on those things is to exert control over the situation. To place blame on those things is your brain telling you "I am a good parent. Good parenting will prevent this from happening to me." "I will not let my children listen to goth rock," etc. That's a natural reaction, but sometimes it just isn't that easy. Sometimes it's just a horrible series of coincidences that are uncontrollable. If Dylan and Eric hadn't known each other, or if the guidance counselor had called Susan back and they had managed to identify the extant signs of depression, maybe none of this ever would have happened. But exerting false control by flinging blame to fight our own internal fears isn't a good way to go about trying to help it from happening again.

[salvatore1989]

May God forgive them for what they did. Those two bozos hurt alot of people, including their own families. I heard one of their mothers committed sucide shortly after. Dumm azzes!

[Nessa]

One of the victim's mother committed suicide within a few years of the shootings, yes.

I was only a year older than Klebold and Harris and was 'one of those kids' at school - all black, Marilyn Manson, Nine Inch Nails, KMFDM, etc., trench coats, boots, etc. None of us ever killed anyone or thought about killing anyone. I think Harris was well on his way to being a psychopath, I think Klebold was suicidal. Together they were like gasoline and a match.

The parents who bitched and blamed Marilyn Manson, as much of a copycat as I think he is now, obviously never heard the Electric Hellfire Club.

[kingoutlaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngMJo...9F589&index=19

does anyone know if this really did happen to eric

[cubbiecatz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngMJo...9F589&index=19

does anyone know if this really did happen to eric

I've never heard about it. Sounds made up to me.

[Nessa]

BS. Totally unsubstantiated.

[kingoutlaw]

the same person claims that there was a sniper on the roof and claims that the photo on his site is the sniper

[Guest]

why would an officer have a file on a department computer named "buttrape"? A...if guilty of such why label the file...B...if the investigator on the case it would be listed as "January Sexual Assault" or something to that affect....I think this is just some conspiracy issue brought up by the poster for his own issues with the department...the fact that the boys wrote "killing cops" in their journals is no more shocking then their actual hit list IMO...they went into that day wanting to kill others and knowing they were not going to come out alive once they did, I think they would have had a shoot out with police while attempting to leave the grounds of the school and possibly continue their shooting spree but their plans did not go off the way they intended them to...so they opted to commit suicide instead and if we go with what evidence does exist..this twisted plan for them to shoot up the school and kill everyone came long before this supposed January incident

Maybe this is just another case of someone desperate to find an "acceptable" answer for WHY?

[Impatience]

i think a partial reason for them wanting to "kill cops" was the incident and their subsequent arrest for breaking into the van some months earlier.

[kingoutlaw]

does anyone have both sets of death photos of eric and dylan i look every where for the pic before they move the bodies i heard this pic was floating around but i couldnt find the first pic

[Nessa]

They've been posted before in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look for them.

Warning: Graphic

Here

And here

[imadeathhag]

I came across this. Sad:

http://acolumbinesite.com/victim/funeral.html

[GrinReaper]

This story is so sad. How could no one have noticed anything? How did they acquire so many weapons and ammunition and no one saw anything? Such a tragedy. Those boys were definitely crazy!

When someone wants to hide things from their parents, especially teenagers, they will find a way.

I had pot pipes and smoked pot even while my parents were in the house and got away with it.

[jaylene]

LITTLETON (AP) - Classes are cancelled Tuesday at Columbine High School on the 11th anniversary of the 1999 shootings.

Twelve students and a teacher died in the shootings before two teenage gunmen committed suicide.

A memorial to the victims in Clement Park next to the school is open to the public.

[willow]

I remember this so vividly. I was a senior in high school that year and it was the first time I had paid any attention to any kind of school shootings. I don't think I moved from the tv for hours watching all of the coverage.

[imadeathhag]

Wow I can't believe it has been 11 years.

[*sarah*]

Columbine is one of those things where you always remember where you were when you found out. I remember we'd had a band competition and were away from school all day and then I got home to my Grandma's house and it was on the news. I stayed glued to that tv all night it seemed. And from then on, it seemed I had a fear at school since we had some guys that seemed similar to Eric and Dylan. Once a guy joked about bombing the school at 2pm the next day and I was terrified. Fortunately he was just joking.
I don't think I'll ever forget all those images from tv or the way it made me feel. Bowling for Columbine by Micheal Moore was a great movie too.

[LemonPopsicle]

Hard to believe it's been 11 years.

[racingfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngMJo...9F589&index=19

does anyone know if this really did happen to eric

I had never seen that clip of Eric before that's in that video of him sitting there at the table talking to the other kids. It's freaky how normal he seems there --nothing overtly sinister -- or no more so than a lot of other high school kids Of course, the basement tapes are another story.

[jaylene]

Another sad day in American History and I to can't believe
its been 11 years. Hope I didn't bring anyone down but I had
to bump this to recognize the horror of that day and the kids
and teacher lost. Mostly the families who are suffering today
remembering. God be with them.

[Miho]

So according to Harris' autopsy they found 600 grams of brain material at the scene.

[Seagorath]

I remember that day vividly. I was picking up a former gf at the Atlanta Airport and I was listening to Arethra Franklin's Lady Soul album in a bar. They had CNN on the television and it flashed on the screen. I couldn't believe what I was seeing...seemed so freakishly shocking at the time...that two teenage boys would pull such a "prank"...as Eric used to say...

Another sad day in American History and I to can't believe
its been 11 years. Hope I didn't bring anyone down but I had
to bump this to recognize the horror of that day and the kids
and teacher lost. Mostly the families who are suffering today
remembering. God be with them.

[kingoutlaw]

eric and dylan were the real victims

[orionova]

eric and dylan were the real victims

Eric and Dylan may have started out as victims, but they became murderers, and deserve just as much sympathy as any other cold blooded murderer. Millions of kids have been bullied, but they didn't kill their classmates.

[Andrea]

Eric and Dylan may have started out as victims, but they became murderers, and deserve just as much sympathy as any other cold blooded murderer. Millions of kids have been bullied, but they didn't kill their classmates.

Amen. Is there one person who can say he/she was never bullied/tormented/ or made fun of in some way in school? That doesn't turn you into a cold blooded murderer. They planned to kill all the kids in that school and even considered the ones they liked as collateral damage.

Eric's "Natural Selection" shirt he wore that day was appropriate for him - he took himself right out of the gene pool, thank God. Unfortunately he took others with him.

[jaylene]

I suppose Hitler was just misunderstood.

[MaxyMillions]

I suppose Hitler was just misunderstood.

Right on, girl! And that poor lil' David Koresh, and that nice boy, Timothy McVeigh...and what about those sweet middle eastern fellas on 9/11? No one ever *sob* thinks about them!

[STsFirstmate]

Right on, girl! And that poor lil' David Koresh, and that nice boy, Timothy McVeigh...and what about those sweet middle eastern fellas on 9/11? No one ever *sob* thinks about them!

Maxy there is clearly something you and I are missing in thinking that Koresh are McVeigh and scum sucking predators. Two different groups of "patriots" met in Washington and Virgina on the anniversary of both Waco and the Bombing at Oklahoma City. These two groups both referred to the events and Koresh as a victim of the Government and McVeigh as a patriot moved to righteous anger.
They were pretty loose with throwing around the Jefferson quote about "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think the Waco raid was badly mishandled but I have zero sympathy for the lowlife Koresh and I feel nothing but contempt for McVeigh and they are far from patriots in my book.
I am therefore, highly suspect of any group that considers the dates of those events patriotic moments to be commemorated.
I am a gun owner and don't want that right taken away and I am a member of the NRA but I feel no need to brandish a weapon in close proximity to my President or in a Civil demonstration.
I have way deeper feelings and concern for the four young soldiers that were KIA and returned to Long Island this past week. I will save my respect and tears for them.
Regards,
Mary

[fultondyke]

That article made me cry. I lost it when she said some of the parents of the victims reached out to her...and that helped save her own life. Such a huge tragedy...and the Harris and Klebold families were among the many people victimized as a result of their sons' violence. I have to agree with the poster above about the psychopathic Eric and suicidal Dylan being like gasoline and a match together...I know as a parent of teenagers who both have suffered from some degree of anxiety and depression, that it is important to keep speaking to them about things which trouble them. I am not saying that this would prevent such an event from occurring, but it does give you insight into a teen's state of mind. A teenager may be almost fully grown on the outside, but their brains keep on developing way into their 20s.

[Sam]

Children and teenagers need to be taught NOT to bully. As a victim of bullying I understand what they did.
Who hasn't wanted to do something to that smart ass jock, or that stuck up cheerleader?
I'm not saying it's right, but I understand.

[Andrea]

I completely agree Sam re children and teenagers being taught not to bully, but they'll do it regardless. It's like trying to get to the top of the food chain. And, it's not just children or teenagers, who hasn't had a tyranical boss or bullying co-worker that drives you nuts? It doesn't mean you go on a rampage. It's an unfortunate part of life, and I'll bet everyone here has done some form of bullying at some point in their life.

Andrea

[Alanwench]

That article made me cry. I lost it when she said some of the parents of the victims reached out to her...and that helped save her own life. Such a huge tragedy...and the Harris and Klebold families were among the many people victimized as a result of their sons' violence. I have to agree with the poster above about the psychopathic Eric and suicidal Dylan being like gasoline and a match together...I know as a parent of teenagers who both have suffered from some degree of anxiety and depression, that it is important to keep speaking to them about things which trouble them. I am not saying that this would prevent such an event from occurring, but it does give you insight into a teen's state of mind. A teenager may be almost fully grown on the outside, but their brains keep on developing way into their 20s.

ITA, plus it's easier for me to sympathize and empathize with Mrs. Klebold because she's speaking out in the article. If Mr. and Mrs. Harris don't wish to make their thoughts known, it's their business, but at the same time, they appear stand-offish and it's hard to 'connect' or understand what they're thinking.

[MaxyMillions]

Children and teenagers need to be taught NOT to bully. As a victim of bullying I understand what they did.
Who hasn't wanted to do something to that smart ass jock, or that stuck up cheerleader?
I'm not saying it's right, but I understand.

That is the key, Sam! Someone mentioned upthread that most of us had been bullied, and I know it was true for me. I was in third grade, and a boy on my street made the short wait for the bus every morning last an eternity for me. My aunt bought that house when we moved down here, and my cousins lived there for years. In casual conversation a couple of years ago, my cousin asked me if I remembered Rotten Fucking Asshole, (*not his real name*) not knowing how he'd tortured me. Well, apparently, karma was alive and well. I'd prefer not to give details, (for once, LOL!!) but I guess he bullied one person too many and was found in the trunk of his car.

In addition to teaching kids not to bully, we have to teach adults not to tolerate kids bullying, and to not dismiss it, or say "kids will be kids".

I was also bullied in 7th grade, and that year was so painful I don't remember most of it. But I can honestly say I never even considered anything like the Columbine massacre.

I will admit to brawling with a stuck-up bitch cheerleader in high school. We rolled in the dirt, punching, scratching and pulling hair. It was fantastic! Such a release! So empowering!

[racingfan]

Children and teenagers need to be taught NOT to bully. As a victim of bullying I understand what they did.
Who hasn't wanted to do something to that smart ass jock, or that stuck up cheerleader?
I'm not saying it's right, but I understand.

Indeed!

[steffie]

Sounds like karma Maxy karma
I've told my daughters (12 + 15) if you talk smack about someone that's a whore or bitch to your friends, ok I can live with that.BUT do not bully people and if you see someone bullying stick up for them or let someone know.If they ever bullied someone or made fun of them for their looks/clothes/disability/what they have or don't have, then they will deal with big momma when they get home.Some kids have no one in their corner and having that one person stick up for you or even send a smile your way might make all the difference in the world.