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Thread: The Black Dahlia

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowblowmonroe View Post
    Here is a pic of my friend Tempest's tattoos she got a few months ago...

    http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...ageID=16035174
    Those tats are unreal. What work!!! Thanks for posting!

  2. #52
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    Yeah thata hot tat..I think Elizabeth had one too...isint that what he gouged out of her thigh and shoved up her ****** I think they said it was a purple flower..I have never seen a pic of it tho...I think she did....Did I mix that up with someoen else?? I

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxofpandoraz View Post
    Someone earlier mentioned that atrocity of a movie they put out with that Hartnett person in it. BLAH! Biggest waste of three hours I've ever committed myself to with ten bucks!

    If you're going to title a movie around a REAL murder case, then at least make the damn movie have something to do WITH the murder case!

    Yes I feel nthe same way it sucked

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    Here's a link to the book on Amazon. Looks like David Lynch has purchased the rights to this--which means a MUCH better movie (than that last pitiful "Black Dahlia" attempt) might be coming along soon!

    http://www.amazon.com/Severed-Story-...4743578&sr=1-1
    David Lynch will do a magnificent job on the movie. I am excited already! Hopefully it is his next movie.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisamarie View Post
    I always wonder what killed her, was it the blunt force trauma to the head or the slash to the face ...I always hear two differant theories about cause of death..also man that girl was lookin at whoever killed her her eyes are open as can be!! I also always look at her hands and the way they are almost fisted...do you guys think she was kept alive for those 5 days and tortured ?? The mourge shots fascinate me.
    It's difficult to obtain solid, verifiable info about the cause of death etc...much (most? all?) of the evidence and documentation on this case has "disappeared" from LAPD files.

    Cobbling together from the most reliable sources, she probably died from the blunt force trauma to the head AND the facial slashing...however it is now generally believed that she actually did bleed to death from the awful wounds to her face.

    I believe her time of death was less than 24 hours prior to when she was found...meaning that she was kept alive for several days previously, and probably tortured over most of that time period.

    The poor girl suffered like no one should ever have to suffer.



  6. #56
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    Dose anyyone know if she indeed had the tatoo?? I wnder if she was raped?? I love how the LAPD looses so much stuff all the time! Assholes!

  7. #57
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    That was a waste of a movie. The whole thing should have been killed. as for Betty, I've read Hodel, Ellroy, Gilmore, Pacios, and a dozen others I think either Gilmore's Wilson did it or that Dr Bailey that lived in the area with the wife and mistress.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
    Ok all you detectives out there...who killed Elizabeth Short??

    Marlow

    If we tell you then we will have to kill you. J/K
    If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a song about him?


    Hag O' Death

  9. #59
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    I read somewhere a doctor or surgeon would have had to have done it because of the precision with the way Elizabeth's body was cut apart. There's a theory that she was tied up inside a bathtub and cut up. Poor girl, just thinking about it makes me wanna cry

  10. #60
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    Yeah I have heard the bathtub theory also, and they say that because of the way her lower half is kind of in an upright position..like if she was in a bathtub....I think I read that in severed. Its so sad..this poor girl has never found peace.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny62 View Post
    I read Steve Hodel's book and he makes a damn good case his father did it!!

    THose crime scene pic's are extreme!!! Scott shows them on the tour!!
    The book is pretty damn good and his site is very informative as well. Seeing that Franklin House on my trip to LA was #1 on my list of things to do!

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    The book "Severed," by John Gilmore, is considered by most to be the authoritative reference on this topic. Gilmore's suspect, Jack Wilson, may or may not have committed the murder, but his intimate knowledge of the details of the crime assure us that he was either present during the crime, or knew the killer intimately. I think Gilmore's research and conclusions are the closest we'll come to ever knowing who committed this horrendous crime.
    I always thought Gilmore's book was a work of fiction interspersed with truths. I could be wrong here but that was always my understanding of Severed. The guy is batshit crazy either way. Did you see the special he did on his mother's death with Bill Curtis? I believe it was on A&E.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Furr View Post
    I always thought Gilmore's book was a work of fiction interspersed with truths. I could be wrong here but that was always my understanding of Severed. The guy is batshit crazy either way. Did you see the special he did on his mother's death with Bill Curtis? I believe it was on A&E.
    I think you're thinking of James Ellroy, Lucy. He wrote "The Black Dahlia" and that was definitely fiction. Ellroy was the guy whose mother was murdered when he was a child. He wrote a book about that too ("My Dark Places"), and yes he is a strange dude.

    The book "Severed" (by John Gilmore) really is the best one out there for factual details, a real "feel" for time and place, and a minimum of guesswork.



  14. #64
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    Just received my copy of Severed and there are some pics in it that I've never seen before, including pics of two other women who were murdered during the day. One is an absolute dead ringer for Beth Short. Some death pics of one. If anyone wants, I can scan and post a link.
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  15. #65
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    plz scan n post

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    I'll do it today.
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    I would love to see the pic....I remeber the one girl that is in the bathtub...her murder always scared the hell outta me....she got home and they say he must have unscrewed the light bulb on her porch and just got her from behind or something...I just remeber her laying in that tub and her nails are perfectly done...its sad...also her neighbor heard screams..and he had stuffed a cloths down her throat and had even cracked her lips on the sorners with the force and she had choked most likley during the rape...I just remeber the one pic of her in the tub..no pants on just thrown away and the one of her in the mourge with her pretty nails.....eerie.....I wonder if it was indeed the same guy who got Elizabeth?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    Just received my copy of Severed and there are some pics in it that I've never seen before, including pics of two other women who were murdered during the day. One is an absolute dead ringer for Beth Short. Some death pics of one. If anyone wants, I can scan and post a link.
    I'd love to see those, Cindy
    .

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  19. #69
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    There are several and I'm fixing to add them to my web site attic, and then I'll post the link. May take a spell.
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  20. #70
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    That's ok. You'll get to it when you get to it.
    .

    Life goes on.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    Just received my copy of Severed and there are some pics in it that I've never seen before, including pics of two other women who were murdered during the day. One is an absolute dead ringer for Beth Short. Some death pics of one. If anyone wants, I can scan and post a link.
    Great book, really makes you think...and wonder...



  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Furr View Post
    The book is pretty damn good and his site is very informative as well. Seeing that Franklin House on my trip to LA was #1 on my list of things to do!
    Boy I think Scott drives by it on the FAD tour? Pretty bad I can't remember for sure and took the trip Sept of last year.

    I am pretty sure he does. My god What a place to live in.

  23. #73
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    yes, it's on the tour...can't see much of it but...



  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    yes, it's on the tour...can't see much of it but...
    Man thats pretty bad I wasn't even sure of it. Thanks!

    I would love to spend a weekend in that house though.

  25. #75
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    ...or the other Frank Lloyd Wright house in L.A. where the original "House on Haunted Hill" was filmed...that one is awesome too...



  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    ...or the other Frank Lloyd Wright house in L.A. where the original "House on Haunted Hill" was filmed...that one is awesome too...

    http://www.ennishouse.org/

  27. #77
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    To paraphrase a certain bot--Warning Will Robinson DEATH SCENE/MORGUE PICS!!!

    http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html
    Cindy Tapia
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  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny62 View Post
    YES! That's it! LOVE that house!



  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    To paraphrase a certain bot--Warning Will Robinson DEATH SCENE/MORGUE PICS!!!

    http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html
    Great, eerie, sad pics and write-ups underneath. Some of those, I'd never seen before. Thanks for sharing them Cindy
    .

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  30. #80
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    Thanks. The write-ups were what was under the pics in the book, but they were not as clear scanned, so I just typed them up.

    I had heard about other murders, but those were the first names I'd seen put to victims, plus the pics. I am still reading Severed, and it is good.

    I have a theory. The Black Dahlia Solution site points a finger at Ed "The Rabbit" Burns. It says he killed Beth because she was obsessed with the murder of a woman in Chicago, I believe it was, and she was using him and was going to leave him. Ok, but I think it went deeper than that. I believe Burns was a serial killer and Beth was at least his third victim and he highly likely had many more under his belt, probably so called throw away women whom no one missed, in more than one state. So here comes Beth, obsessed with that other murder and obsessed with that other killer, and I think he was jealous, enraged and that's why he cut her mouth like that and otherwise did more damage to her than those other two women--or at least the one in the tub (and so far from the little I've read it seems there were in fact other victims found in tubs).

    I haven't finished the book yet, so I don't know all that was going on in the day, but I'm going to venture a guess as to why the cops didn't put two and two together and smell a fish, a link among the killings. Ever heard of linkage blindness? It's when cops don't see a link between victims even though it's right under their nose. I give you the Green River and the Atlanta Missing and Murdered Children killings.
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    Great theory Cindy Let us know how it turns out once you've finished the book.

    I like to hear all kinds of theories and different people's perspectives. So even if someone's already given theirs, I still ask for more. This is one of the best theory and perspective cases around!
    .

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    The book is a page turner. Severed is supposed to be the Black Dahlia book. What has impressed me so far are the nitty gritty details and the fact he doesn't drag Beth in the mud. I hate it when she is called a whore. She had a rep of "look, but don't touch." She was most def a party girl, which probably put her in her killer's path. But she did not deserve to die like that, no one does.
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    Thanks for the pics and theory, Cindy! You rock!

    Beth was really a beautiful lady, and the other 2 pics you posted look eerily like her. I may just support your theory of a serial killer. He goes after the women with a certain "look".
    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39

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    Quote Originally Posted by SheBoss View Post
    Thanks for the pics and theory, Cindy! You rock!

    Beth was really a beautiful lady, and the other 2 pics you posted look eerily like her. I may just support your theory of a serial killer. He goes after the women with a certain "look".
    It most def looks like it.
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    Morbid curiousity...about how long would it have taken Beth's body to be drained of all it's blood in the tub?

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    I have no idea, but I can find out, approximately, anyway, from a hunter. They think she was hung upside down like a hunter would hang a deer--or ala Ed Gein.
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    Exclamation Unsolved Murders

    Was there a serial killer at work during the 1940s? Was the Black Dahlia one of his victims? Who were the others and did any of them have a connection to Beth Short? So I googled "Unsolved murders in LA during the 1940s, and IMO hit paydirt.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=a7Te2BbKW7oC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=unsolved+murders+1940s+in+la&source=web&o ts=xHMRqgYmym&sig=Zv3hdKn88sQua4NO2lnTOsMz3ak&hl=en#PPA423,M1

    http://boards.crimelibrary.com/archive/index.php/t-280396.html
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    The entire case both fascinates me and turns my stomach like no other. Beth was a part time prostitute and she hung out with some unsavory characters. The level of rage in the crime was very personal. It had to be someone that she knew fairly well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    The entire case both fascinates me and turns my stomach like no other. Beth was a part time prostitute and she hung out with some unsavory characters. The level of rage in the crime was very personal. It had to be someone that she knew fairly well.

    Actually, from all I've read, Beth wasn't a prostitute in the sense of the word.

    For one thing, her vagina valt was so underdeveloped that penetration was impossible. I know there are other sexual acts, but I do not believe she was a whore who sold her body in the traditional sense. Bear with me.

    For what it's worth, this is my take on Beth.

    As a child Beth had asthma pretty bad and as a result, she was coddled by her mother and sisters. And I think she grew up feeling she was entitled to things she wanted. I know she worked a bit, but was most of the time without a job or held one that paid a pittance.

    Beth moved to Hollywood to be in the movies. Some have said she had the goods to be a star, some say not. The problem with Beth is she was an actress wannabe who would never be because she did not have the attitude to see her acting dreams come true. She was like a writer who wants to be a writer, but never writes or writes but doesn't have the attitude--the stick to it--to see her dreams fulfilled.

    Beth was a transit, a flower in the wind, if you will. Homeless by choice, aparently. (When she was being held and murdered for days, no one noticed she had disappeared because she was always gadding about to this city or another, San Diego, Chicago, back home for visit.) A woman who could have held down a job earning enough to provide shelter for herself, but she seldom chose to do that.

    There was always a man or men to buy what she needed or wanted. They bought her food and nice clothing and hotel rooms and boarding rooms and took her into their bachelor pads. And she gave them sexual favors of a kind in return. But not intercouse, because it was physically impossible for her to do that.

    So in that she traded goods for a kind of sex, she was a prostitute, ethically, but not legally.

    Her inability to have traditional sex may just be the key to her murder.

    In his book, Severed, John Gilmore believes the man beloe killed Beth.


    (It's 2:11am here and I can't find my dang copy of the book, and I can't remember some of the names of places or people, but I do remember remember the relevent details.)

    The last time anyone saw Beth alive was when she showed up at an LA hotel, fresh from a stay in San Diego. She was supposed to meet someone at there, but they were a no show or late and she just walked out into the night and down the road, with no place to go.

    Gilmore believes Jack Anderson Wilson picked her up with a promise a hotel room if she would have sex with him. The deal was struck. They got a room, but Beth refused intercourse because that was impossible for her to do. Anderson would not be put off. He kept her prisoner in that room for some three days, if I remember right. Somewhere in there he tried to rape her, but of course he could not penetrate. That enraged him so that he killed her. It was impotency in reverse, you might say. He could, but she couldn't. I doubt there is a greater fury than that of a monster's sexual frustration.

    He cut her in half, in the bathtub, and loaded her severed body in two suitcases and dumped her out of them and onto the lot where she was found.

    This may or may not be the way it went down. There's still questions that this scenerio does not answer. Why was her mouth slashed? I have always believed it was because she had threatened to reveal some secret or mouthed off or the killer got sick and tired of her talking about the woman slain in Chicago (see earlier post).

    What haunts me is what might have been. Had she been more independent and not relied on men to furnish her with the things she needed and wanted she would not have been in the position to be picked up by this madman--whoever he was--because she didn't have a home.

    Yet, no matter what kind of woman Beth was; no matter what life she chose to live, or that she traded shallow favors for beautiful clothes, shoes, bags, makeup, food, and shelter, she did not deserve to be slaughtered and dumped like garbage.
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    What happens to one's vaginal valt to where penetration is impossible? Is that a birth defect? I've never heard of this, and we have lots of medical/death-knowledeable folks on line so maybe someone can answer??
    .
    .
    "So, what, no fuckin' ziti now?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    What happens to one's vaginal valt to where penetration is impossible? Is that a birth defect? I've never heard of this, and we have lots of medical/death-knowledeable folks on line so maybe someone can answer??

    Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), Intersex is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, a shallow or missing vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. A person can appear female and the genitals may appear normal but the introitus or vaginal opening lacks depth. Persons born with the condition are biologically male but born insensitive to male hormones. I believe that I have seen that the coroners mentioned insufficient vaginal depth on the Short autopsy at some time but don't know how reliable that source was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanddodger View Post
    Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), Intersex is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, a shallow or missing vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. A person can appear female and the genitals may appear normal but the introitus or vaginal opening lacks depth. Persons born with the condition are biologically male but born insensitive to male hormones. I believe that I have seen that the coroners mentioned insufficient vaginal depth on the Short autopsy at some time but don't know how reliable that source was.
    Did the autopsy REALLY say that? If not, how do we know it is not some myth? I would think something so unusual would be mentioned in the autopsy if true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    What happens to one's vaginal valt to where penetration is impossible? Is that a birth defect? I've never heard of this, and we have lots of medical/death-knowledeable folks on line so maybe someone can answer??
    I never even knew I had a vault

  44. #94
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    It was most def mentioned in the autopsy, according to John Gilmore in his book Severed, which has been called THE book on Black Dahlia. Having read lots of books and articles on this case, his makes more sense than any of them
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    It was most def mentioned in the autopsy, according to John Gilmore in his book Severed, which has been called THE book on Black Dahlia. Having read lots of books and articles on this case, his makes more sense than any of them
    I suppose that the "blocked" vagina may have lead to the killer's frenzy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanddodger View Post
    Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), Intersex is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, a shallow or missing vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. A person can appear female and the genitals may appear normal but the introitus or vaginal opening lacks depth. Persons born with the condition are biologically male but born insensitive to male hormones. I believe that I have seen that the coroners mentioned insufficient vaginal depth on the Short autopsy at some time but don't know how reliable that source was.
    Professionally speaking, I have never heard of anyone finding "insufficient vaginal depth" in an autopsy.

    Perhaps due to the depravity of the death of Elizabeth, the coroner or medical examiner lingered and examined her vagina in detail. However, in a "normal" autopsy, genitals are not looked at in an extensive way as to measuring depth or size or anthing else.

    Genitals are looked at in order for appearance and to see if they appear to be "normal" and in a case where sexual assault is suspected, a SA kit is done (swabs, etc) and the vagina and anus would be inspected, but I still have never heard of looking at a vagina to see it's depth?

    Maybe I will ask one of the docs at work.

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    It could have. On the other hand, he may have been going to kill her from the get go.
    I still think there was a serial killer working LA during that time; whether Beth was one of his victims, we shall never know.

    I also believe the cops knew who killed her. Anderson did confess of a sort and was going to turn himself in or meet with a detective, but he died in a fire beforehand. There's a whole lot more to this than I am willing to venture because I can't find my dang copy of Severed. I will say that there was infighting in the LAPD, which hampered the investigation.


    Cach, the shallow vagina vault could have been a simple birth defect, or it could have been AIS, as Sanddodger said.
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  48. #98
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    Oct 2007
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    Kuce Creek
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisalouver View Post
    Professionally speaking, I have never heard of anyone finding "insufficient vaginal depth" in an autopsy.

    Perhaps due to the depravity of the death of Elizabeth, the coroner or medical examiner lingered and examined her vagina in detail. However, in a "normal" autopsy, genitals are not looked at in an extensive way as to measuring depth or size or anthing else.

    Genitals are looked at in order for appearance and to see if they appear to be "normal" and in a case where sexual assault is suspected, a SA kit is done (swabs, etc) and the vagina and anus would be inspected, but I still have never heard of looking at a vagina to see it's depth?

    Maybe I will ask one of the docs at work.

    If I had my copy of the book it might tell why they looked.

    But this was the late 40s and maybe that's the way they did things back then, or Gilmore is just proporting a myth. Dang him, if he is. I'm going to reorder that book. (It's the second one that has just disappeared from my book shelves this year. Don't you just hate it?)
    Cindy Tapia
    Our Town
    In Loving Memory Brandon Lee

    You can fix anything but a blank page. --Bonnie Hearn Hill

  49. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minnesooooota!
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    9,876
    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    If I had my copy of the book it might tell why they looked.

    But this was the late 40s and maybe that's the way they did things back then, or Gilmore is just proporting a myth. Dang him, if he is. I'm going to reorder that book. (It's the second one that has just disappeared from my book shelves this year. Don't you just hate it?)
    Yea, I was going to type in my post that in the 40's things were way different as far as autopsies. Hell, even in the 80's it was different.

    It could be a myth, but maybe they actually did measurements.

    Let us know when you get the book and find out how he said it and if they say why they looked at the vagina with such scrutiny.

  50. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kuce Creek
    Posts
    35,575
    Quote Originally Posted by lisalouver View Post
    Yea, I was going to type in my post that in the 40's things were way different as far as autopsies. Hell, even in the 80's it was different.

    It could be a myth, but maybe they actually did measurements.

    Let us know when you get the book and find out how he said it and if they say why they looked at the vagina with such scrutiny.
    I certainly will, Lisa. I'm so glad you are a member here; you're such a valuable asset to FAD.
    Cindy Tapia
    Our Town
    In Loving Memory Brandon Lee

    You can fix anything but a blank page. --Bonnie Hearn Hill

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