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Thread: The Black Dahlia

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I certainly will, Lisa. I'm so glad you are a member here; you're such a valuable asset to FAD.
    Thank you cindy! I love being here.

    I also feel the same way about you.

  2. #102
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    I remember that the body was posed a certain way. I thought it was a sexual reference. Does anyone remember how the body was displayed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I remember that the body was posed a certain way. I thought it was a sexual reference. Does anyone remember how the body was displayed?
    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html

    Just scroll down and you'll see how she was found.

    Now, if you don't want to look--she was indeed posed with her legs spread.
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  4. #104
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    great pics cyndy!
    pull the string!

  5. #105
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    Thanks, Kitty
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  6. #106
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    i read that not only orson welles was a suspect but other famous people as well.

  7. #107
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    Although popular belief as well as many "true" crime books portrayed Short as a call girl, a report by the district attorney's grand jury states that she was not a prostitute.
    Another widely circulated rumor holds that Short was unable to have sexual intercourse because of some genetic defect that left her with "infantile genitalia." Los Angeles County district attorney's files state the investigators had questioned three men with whom Short had sex,[2] including a Chicago police officer who was a suspect in the case.[3] The FBI files on the case also contain a statement from one of Short's lovers. According to the Los Angeles Police Department's summary of the case, in the district attorney's files, the autopsy describes Short's reproductive organs as anatomically normal. The autopsy also states that Short was not and had never been pregnant, contrary to what is sometimes claimed.[2]
    The D.A.'s files contain the following:—
    Doctor Schwartz last stated that he studied surgery and that victim was on the make for him but that she was the patient of Doctor Arthur McGinnis Faught who was treating victim for trouble with her bartholin gland and that he wanted nothing to do with her. He stated that the bartholin gland was the lubricating gland in the vagina and that Doctor Faught had lanced it on several occasions and it could account for the fact that she had not been having intercourse with men.[4]This is from Wikipedia

  8. #108
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    I always get freaked out looking at Elizabeth Smarts pictures.I don't know why.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotmama View Post
    i read that not only orson welles was a suspect but other famous people as well.
    Here is a site that lists the suspects--or some of them.

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n...ia/new_11.html

    Quote Originally Posted by baroque1 View Post
    Although popular belief as well as many "true" crime books portrayed Short as a call girl, a report by the district attorney's grand jury states that she was not a prostitute.
    Another widely circulated rumor holds that Short was unable to have sexual intercourse because of some genetic defect that left her with "infantile genitalia." Los Angeles County district attorney's files state the investigators had questioned three men with whom Short had sex,[2] including a Chicago police officer who was a suspect in the case.[3] The FBI files on the case also contain a statement from one of Short's lovers. According to the Los Angeles Police Department's summary of the case, in the district attorney's files, the autopsy describes Short's reproductive organs as anatomically normal. The autopsy also states that Short was not and had never been pregnant, contrary to what is sometimes claimed.[2]
    The D.A.'s files contain the following:
    Doctor Schwartz last stated that he studied surgery and that victim was on the make for him but that she was the patient of Doctor Arthur McGinnis Faught who was treating victim for trouble with her bartholin gland and that he wanted nothing to do with her. He stated that the bartholin gland was the lubricating gland in the vagina and that Doctor Faught had lanced it on several occasions and it could account for the fact that she had not been having intercourse with men.[4]This is from Wikipedia
    You could be right. I am waiting for another copy of Severed to replace the one that disappeared from my book shelf. When I get it I'm going to read again what the author, John Gilmore, states the autopsy says about that and other things, then I'll post it.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Did the autopsy REALLY say that? If not, how do we know it is not some myth? I would think something so unusual would be mentioned in the autopsy if true.
    The complete autopsy report was online a few years ago but I can't find it anymore. It was quite in detail as I remember. AIS (Intersex) is not a myth nor is it all that unusual. Think I will call a friend about it.

    I found this:
    [SIZE=+1]Reproductive Defects[/SIZE] What about Elizabeth Shorts reproductive defects?
    In response to Elizabeth Short's inability to be properly penetrated, John Gilmore responds:
    Because Beth Short hadn't menstruated during puberty, there was some concern; and a "family" doctor was consulted. The doctor advised Beth's mother that "she would outgrow" the problem "when she more fully developed." He believed she was a "slow developer" in the vaginal area, though the breasts, etc. were normal for her age.
    Beth was taking some pills to bring on her period, but then stopped and pretended to (menstruate). She wore sanitary napkins at least once a month or more often the remainder of her life.
    Additionally, "Finis Brown visited the doctor in "Chicago" after his interviews with Gordon Fickling who confirmed Beth's problem. She had consulted the doctor under another name, but it was a play on her own. Again, this information was kept secret "pending questioning the 'right' suspect"and this information was never corrected in the media by the police, so the "rumor" that Beth was a whore stayed afloat. It's where the gossip and Ellroy's and others notions came from. The killer wasn't bothered by lack of penetration. He had other fish to fry with her. " - John Gilmore
    NOTE: The LAPD will not comment on this issue.

    The autopsy is on sale for 15.00 US Dollars
    Last edited by Heavenly Tiger; 06-14-2008 at 09:00 PM.

  11. #111
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    Get this--Bugsey Seagal a suspect! D'oh.

    http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news...php?storyid=15
    Last edited by cindyt; 06-14-2008 at 07:50 PM.
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  12. #112
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    One of the reports says she had fecal matter in her stomach. JHC.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceege View Post
    One of the reports says she had fecal matter in her stomach. JHC.
    Yes. That poor poor girl.
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  14. #114
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    I can't even make my mind go there. Just can't do it.
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  15. #115
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    My post came from wikipedia so it may be right or wrong. I was reading the above google book search of unsolved murders and one was a link to the book written by DR. George Hodel's son (who was police) and suspects his father as being the murderer. He does mention that she was forced to eat defication and I think he says part of her skin that was cut off was shoved in anal and vaginal cavities. If this is factual this poor girls story just gets worse and worse. Im investigating this more

  16. #116
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    She had a tattoo on her left thigh that was cut off and shoved up her vagina with a bunch of grass. Then she was sodomized.

    I grieve for that woman.
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  17. #117
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    I must admit that this murder has fascinated me for years. Especially since Lucy Arnez played her in a TV movie back in the 70's.
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned that? (Maybe they have and I just didn't see it.)
    It ranks up there with the TOP TEN of the most unsolved crimes of this century!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I must admit that this murder has fascinated me for years. Especially since Lucy Arnez played her in a TV movie back in the 70's.
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned that? (Maybe they have and I just didn't see it.)
    It ranks up there with the TOP TEN of the most unsolved crimes of this century!
    Lol. That century.

    I do remember seeing the movie with Luci Arnez.

    There was also an episode of Hunter about Beth, which was good.

    I don't even remember when I heard about the case, but I've been hooked ever since.

    Do you have a theory?
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    Lol. That century.

    I do remember seeing the movie with Luci Arnez.

    There was also an episode of Hunter about Beth, which was good.

    I don't even remember when I heard about the case, but I've been hooked ever since.

    Do you have a theory?

    Yes, THAT Century! She certainly didn't inherit her mother, OR her father's good looks....sort of a mongrel dog's looks and a personality to match from what I've heard.
    Perhaps it's because we'd like so see her in the same situation in real life as she was in the movie? LOL!

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    Since her tatoo was cut off and stuck up her whohaw wouldn't it just make sense they would examine her there to make sure nothing else was stuck up her and if her physical difference is the way it is describe -then they would note that her vayjayjay wasn't that deep in the autopsy.

    This is a tragic case and to think someone-another human being did that to her-I just can't wrap my brain around how someone could torture another human being.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandykisses View Post
    Since her tatoo was cut off and stuck up her whohaw wouldn't it just make sense they would examine her there to make sure nothing else was stuck up her and if her physical difference is the way it is describe -then they would note that her vayjayjay wasn't that deep in the autopsy.

    This is a tragic case and to think someone-another human being did that to her-I just can't wrap my brain around how someone could torture another human being.
    Well, even if they had ventured up her vagina and taken measurements, what is the proper depth of a vagina? What did they compare it to?

    I mean if grass and a hunk of flesh fit up would'nt a penis?

    I'm going to ask one of the docs at work.

  22. #122
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    I don't know that grass was stuck anywhere--may be having a brain fart here and can't remember. Something, and I believe they called it faty tissue, skin, or something like that was apparently shoved up somewhere and it may have been her anus--I am thinking it was found deep in her mouth, but I could be wrong. Tattoo cut off? I need some sleep and that dang book. LOL.

    Whohaw? ROTFL.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I don't know that grass was stuck anywhere--may be having a brain fart here and can't remember. Something, and I believe they called it faty tissue, skin, or something like that was apparently shoved up somewhere and it may have been her anus--I am thinking it was found deep in her mouth, but I could be wrong. Tattoo cut off? I need some sleep and that dang book. LOL.

    Whohaw? ROTFL.
    Nighty nite Cindyt.

  24. #124
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    'Nite, kandy
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    'Nite, kandy
    sleep tight don't let the Vampires bite.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandykisses View Post
    sleep tight don't let the Vampires bite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I don't know that grass was stuck anywhere--may be having a brain fart here and can't remember. Something, and I believe they called it faty tissue, skin, or something like that was apparently shoved up somewhere and it may have been her anus--I am thinking it was found deep in her mouth, but I could be wrong. Tattoo cut off? I need some sleep and that dang book. LOL.

    Whohaw? ROTFL.
    I had to search to find where I read this yesterday. Here is the link, supposedly the information comes from the autopsy report. http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/elizabeth.html
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    I followed some other links and found this website. This is interesting and talks about the tattoo and where it was found. http://www.bethshort.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=16453
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefeStone View Post
    The movie was garbage. It seemed like the whole murder was just a sub-story within the movie. They need to make another one. I see police thiller. two dectives tracing the killer. The dahalia would be shown in flash backs. I would get Dita Von Teese to play her. She wouldnt have to even speak.
    I was talking to a friend last night and she said the same thing about the murder being a subplot. I think Hillary Swank as a beautiful temptress was totally miscast. Dita would be perfect if they actually did a movie about Beth Short.

    Wasn't there a movie with Robert DeNiro as a Priest who takes a confession of someone saying they were the Black Dahlia Killer? I wonder if it was a good movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceege View Post
    I had to search to find where I read this yesterday. Here is the link, supposedly the information comes from the autopsy report. http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/elizabeth.html
    I read Hodel's book but I was not impressed.

    I put more faith in John Gilmore. I don't remmeber if he said the flesh was a birthmark or a tat. I'm waiting on the book.

    Plus, you have to read everything with a grain of salt, especially these old cold cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I read Hodel's book but I was not impressed.

    I put more faith in John Gilmore. I don't remmeber if he said the flesh was a birthmark or a tat. I'm waiting on the book.

    Plus, you have to read everything with a grain of salt, especially these old cold cases.
    Hodels book is the only one I have ever read and it left a bad taste in my mouth too.

    Maybe I should try some others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I read Hodel's book but I was not impressed.

    I put more faith in John Gilmore. I don't remmeber if he said the flesh was a birthmark or a tat. I'm waiting on the book.

    Plus, you have to read everything with a grain of salt, especially these old cold cases.
    I am woefully uninformed about this case, so all I know is what I read here. No matter what, it was horrific.

    So if I am going to read a book about this, would you recommend John Gilmore then?
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    I remember reading that there is a theory that Beth was only one murder among a series. I believe one of the other murders was of a socialite found in her bathtub.

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    I read that too. They think Beth was killed and drained in a bathtub before being dumped off.
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    Forgot to add that the guy with a limp who was seen with Beth, also "dated" the socialite. I think he may be the one who did it, especially since he died and all the murders stopped. What do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceege View Post
    I am woefully uninformed about this case, so all I know is what I read here. No matter what, it was horrific.

    So if I am going to read a book about this, would you recommend John Gilmore then?
    Yes, I would recommend the Gilmore. You can get it on amazon for a song, used.

    I've read at least three books, and probably more, and his book is the best by far.
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    Thanks cindy. I'll check amazon.
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I remember reading that there is a theory that Beth was only one murder among a series. I believe one of the other murders was of a socialite found in her bathtub.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=a7Te2BbKW7oC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=unsolved+murders+1940s+in+la&source=web&o ts=xHMRqgYmym&sig=Zv3hdKn88sQua4NO2lnTOsMz3ak&hl=en#PPA423,M1
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    This is fromformer FBI profiler Gregg McCrary:

    By Gregg McCrary From the lack of blood on the ground or body, among other factors, it was clear that Short had been killed elsewhere and dumped in the vacant lot. Oddly, it appeared as though her body had been washed clean; even her hair was damp, leading some to surmise that it had been freshly washed. Fowler stated that a section of her left leg had been cut deeply through the muscles, and a large piece of muscle and skin was missing.

    There was speculation that the corpse may have been refrigerated: Her fingerprint ridges appeared shrunken and the skin of the fingers had puckered into grooves, as if she'd been kept on ice. The cause of death was from "hemorrhage and shock due to concussion of the brain and lacerations of the face." There were multiple lacerations to the mid-forehead, right forehead, and top of the head. There were also multiple crisscross lacerations in the pubic area, and stab wounds into the intestine and both kidneys. She had not been pregnant, but within the vagina, which reportedly was not fully formed, the pathologist found a piece of skin with subcutaneous tissue attached. On it were several crisscrossing lacerations.

    It appeared that the victim had been anally penetrated after death as well, and inside the anal canal was a tuft of brown curly hair, which bore similarities to the victim's pubic hair. The stomach was filled with feces, but there was no sperm in any orifice. (Fowler stated that the pubic hair was found in Short's vagina and the hunk of flesh, which bore a rose tattoo, was inside her rectum.)

    Because there was little blood in the body, it was surmised that the victim could have been cut in half before she died, leading her to bleed to death through a severed artery

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    Ok my problem with the hodel book, where is the motive? What made Elizabeth different from all the other women the good doctor banged? I also don't believe a person capable of such a gruesome crime would be able to function in society and keep a medical practice and live into their 90's. Elizabeth's eyes were opened to identify the color, check out crime scene pics and not morgue pics, eyes are closed. Her hands are from being bound for several days, of course we will never know the true or the whole story, after more than 60 years,but I think Wolfe and Gilmore are the closest we will get at this point. I think the thing that attracts everyone is a hauntingly beautiful young woman, a horrible crime, no motive, hollywood dreams, brutalization, what might have been, ect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverwaif77 View Post
    Ok my problem with the hodel book, where is the motive? What made Elizabeth different from all the other women the good doctor banged? I also don't believe a person capable of such a gruesome crime would be able to function in society and keep a medical practice and live into their 90's. Elizabeth's eyes were opened to identify the color, check out crime scene pics and not morgue pics, eyes are closed. Her hands are from being bound for several days, of course we will never know the true or the whole story, after more than 60 years,but I think Wolfe and Gilmore are the closest we will get at this point. I think the thing that attracts everyone is a hauntingly beautiful young woman, a horrible crime, no motive, hollywood dreams, brutalization, what might have been, ect.
    Great post, welcome to the board!

    Yea, the Hodel book sucked ass. I still have my copy, think I am going to donate it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html

    Just scroll down and you'll see how she was found.

    Now, if you don't want to look--she was indeed posed with her legs spread.
    When I was looking at these pics my fridge made some loud popping noise. Damn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html

    Just scroll down and you'll see how she was found.

    Now, if you don't want to look--she was indeed posed with her legs spread.
    That is just so grusome. On a really weird note I am so used to waxed vajayjays I was like did the cut her or what then realized she was just natural. Thank you PB.

  44. #144
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    And regarding the death pics of her....

    Angry much?

    God, that is just brutal what he did, specially the facial cut.....

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    There are certain cases, this one being one of them, and another I think of is Jack the Ripper, where the rage shown by what was done to the victims is just hard to comprehend. The killers seem to be bent on utterly destroying them.



  46. #146
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    Ted Bundy said that killers like this have an entity living inside them--a hunchbacked monster who comes out to kill. (paraphrased).
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    Quote Originally Posted by endsleigh03 View Post
    When I was looking at these pics my fridge made some loud popping noise. Damn!
    LMAO! I know how you felt. Years ago I was reading something scary as hell when my dang cat sneaked up behind me and slapped me across the butt. I almost hit the ceiling.
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    I dont know but i bet "HE LOOKED LIKE A MAN"
    "This ain't no freakin' dress rehearsal !"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedstreet View Post


    I dont know but i bet "HE LOOKED LIKE A MAN"
    That's the point. We think these wacked out killers should look the part, but most of them don't. They look like anyone else, but they have this evil thing living inside them.
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    I never knew with the stomach content that the implacation was she was fed fecal matter....I never put two and two together ....thats awful..after thinking about it if she was held for three days then indeed she would have to been fed that at some pont it takes the body and hr to digest food....talk about making a bad situation even worse huh?? When I think of what happened to this girl over that three day period it gives me the chills!!!!

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